Interesting Sailboats - Page 607 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree1266Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #6061  
Old 02-06-2014
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,167
Thanks: 21
Thanked 96 Times in 80 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Main Market

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrPelicano View Post
I don't entirely agree with "the market is always right" - even though, from a business perspective, it certainly is. From a design and aesthetic perspective, you have to deal with the reality of boats from firms like Hunter - they sell a lot of boats which, in my perspective, are not particularly pleasing to look at and certainly don't perform well with respect to sailing. What they do well is:

1. Maximize livable interior space
2. Optimize performance while motoring - i.e., their hull designs can resemble powerboats more than sailboats.

There is a sizable segment of the market that appreciates these qualities. But I'd side with Bob here and say I would never want to design a boat where those two objectives were primary.

...
Yes, the market is always right and it is not by accident that even being Hunter an american brand and therefore with a special appeal to Americans, it was at the edge of bankruptcy and even if it is very difficult to preview market tendencies, specially american ones, I would say the new boats, relatively narrow and with odd chines would not contribute to the recovery of the company.

Hunter withstanding the advantage of being an American brand sells less in America than Benetau or Jeanneau and I am not sure if they will survive with boats designed like that. Contrary of what you think I don't think it is what main market wants. Time will tell if the new Hunter will satisfy the main market to whom they are pointed. I don't think so.

Those sailors and cruisers want all what you said but want also a boat that sails as well or better than a similarly priced boat with the same interior characteristics.

Market is always right even if you don't like the same type of boats the main market wants (that means most of the cruisers) and that is to be expected being you a racer that never seriously cruised. Even when you start cruising, you, like me, will want a rewarding and fast boat with sailing performance as one of the main if not the more important design criteria in the boat. There are boats designed for cruisers and sailors like us but they are not main market because that is not what most sailors want regarding priorities.

Boats with great sailing characteristics are much more expensive to produce (and price is very important), even having a simpler and cheaper interior.

The boats that are produced for the main market have to have all characteristics you mentioned and also sail well, and they have to sail remarkably well giving the cheaper deck hardware and the simplified rigging, so well that some of those boats can have a similar performance (or better) than many 20 year's old performance cruisers and that is truly remarkable.

I would say that main market can be defined as the best cruiser for the buck and that includes not only how it sails but interior and quality of space, how it motors, all this in a balanced way.

When you go to the Miami boat show I strongly recommend you not to show to your wife the Sun Odyssey 349. Even if the Elan 320 has a great cruising interior for a performance boat, she will never be able to understand why you will want the Elan 320. She will ask to you if the Jeanneau 349 will not sail well and you would have been obliged to tell her that yes and would say also that the Elan 320 is faster. She would ask much faster? and you would have to answer truthfully: No, just a little bit.

And then you will have a problem because she would say that a boat that is just a little bit faster does not make sense cruising or living wise face to one with a better interior (separated shower cabin and all) and also one that is a lot less expensive.

See, that is what is all about main market cruisers and why most sailors will prefer them over performance cruisers That's why they are main market.

Regards

Paulo
MrPelicano likes this.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 02-06-2014 at 11:08 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #6062  
Old 02-06-2014
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,663
Thanks: 1
Thanked 74 Times in 70 Posts
Rep Power: 4
bobperry will become famous soon enough
Re: Interesting Sailboats

"Yes, the market is always right "

My clients are not "the market".

There you have it. The fundamental difference between my point of view and Paulo's.
I'll let it go at that.
Rhapsody-NS27 likes this.
__________________
Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #6063  
Old 02-06-2014
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Puerto Rico
Posts: 184
Thanks: 3
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 8
HMoll is on a distinguished road
Re: Interesting Sailboats

http://www.youtube.com/embed/P1OddRBV0mw


This is a link to a clip of a 350 that was featured on Sailing Anarchy highlighting the "massive leeway" evident in the video. You start to wonder if the port tack 410 was having similar control issues, but what is evident in the video is what happens when the Elan's chine digs in beyond "ideal" heel, adding flotation aft. Maybe not loosing rudder control, but maybe the shape is lifting the keel too much out of the water, loosing the groove?

Thanks to Paulo, Bob (and mediators) for the hot discussion about chines. I totally "get" both arguments, and I understood Bob the first time around on boat behaviour issues, and what to expect. It reminded me of this Elan video, where you see the chined hull maybe becoming a handicap or a challenge on the upwind leg. Quite a tradeoff for a downwind blaster

Cheers,

Hans

Last edited by HMoll; 02-06-2014 at 01:03 PM. Reason: Link fix
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #6064  
Old 02-06-2014
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Sofia, Bulgaria
Posts: 168
Thanks: 1
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 3
olianta is on a distinguished road
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by HMoll View Post
http://http://www.youtube.com/embed/P1OddRBV0mw

This is a link to a clip of a 350 that was featured on Sailing Anarchy highlighting the "massive leeway" evident in the video. You start to wonder if the port tack 410 was having similar control issues, but what is evident in the video is what happens when the Elan's chine digs in beyond "ideal" heel, adding flotation aft. Maybe not loosing rudder control, but maybe the shape is lifting the keel too much out of the water, loosing the groove?

Thanks to Paulo, Bob a(nd mediators) for the hot discussion about chines. I totally "get" both arguments, and I understood Bob the first time around on boat behaviour issues, and what to expect. It reminded me of this Elan video, where you see the chined hull maybe becoming a handicap or a challenge on the upwind leg. Quite a tradeoff for a downwind blaster

Cheers,

Hans
Hans,
I could not open the link.
Here is another one that has to work.
élan | Sailing Anarchy

Rumen
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
The Following User Says Thank You to olianta For This Useful Post:
HMoll (02-06-2014)
  #6065  
Old 02-06-2014
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,663
Thanks: 1
Thanked 74 Times in 70 Posts
Rep Power: 4
bobperry will become famous soon enough
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Thanks Rumen. That worked.
__________________
Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #6066  
Old 02-06-2014
Edward3's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 96
Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 2
Edward3 is on a distinguished road
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Hans, can you check the link you posted on the 350 and 410.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #6067  
Old 02-06-2014
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,167
Thanks: 21
Thanked 96 Times in 80 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Elan 350

Quote:
Originally Posted by HMoll View Post
http://http://www.youtube.com/embed/P1OddRBV0mw

This is a link to a clip of a 350 that was featured on Sailing Anarchy highlighting the "massive leeway" evident in the video. You start to wonder if the port tack 410 was having similar control issues, but what is evident in the video is what happens when the Elan's chine digs in beyond "ideal" heel, adding flotation aft. Maybe not loosing rudder control, but maybe the shape is lifting the keel too much out of the water, loosing the groove?
Hans, I don't know of what you are talking a a boat your link video does not work. The Elan 350 is a very well succeeded performance cruiser, so much that after several years on the market, instead of having a completely new model they launched the 360 that has the same hull of the 350:





The boat has also a good overall performance and is used with good results in club regattas even on the ones with light wids like this one (not the strog point of the boat):





As you can see, even if the boat has a rating to high to win on absolute top regattas it is able to win on club reagattas. Note that the boat not being able to win at the higher level has nothing to do with being fast or even faster in real time but with the fact that it is to much penalized by rating.

The Elan, with the Archambault and JPK are also among the very few boats that can get very good race results sailed with a crew or sailed solo. Note that the two other brands have faster boats but more racing oriented with worse cruising interiors and substantially more expensive.

The 360 is just a bit lighter and a bit faster than the 350 and with a better interior.

Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 02-06-2014 at 11:35 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #6068  
Old 02-06-2014
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,663
Thanks: 1
Thanked 74 Times in 70 Posts
Rep Power: 4
bobperry will become famous soon enough
Re: Interesting Sailboats

I wouldn't draw ay conclusions about the boats in the vid, too many variables.

What I do see is one boat with a big gaping hole caused by two skippers who should have paid more attention and been more aware of their boat's behaviour in those conditions.
__________________
Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #6069  
Old 02-06-2014
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,167
Thanks: 21
Thanked 96 Times in 80 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
I wouldn't draw ay conclusions about the boats in the vid, too many variables.
....
Bob, there is no better way to take conclusions about the sailing performance of a boat than looking at his rating, that is high, or looking at his racing performance, if it is a performance one...and the boat can win making outstanding results in real time even on races with many modern and fast opponents.

A lot of speed and cruising quality for the price, it is clear to all, at lest to all boat testers that sail and know all the new boats on the market. You cannot find anybody that knows the market and says otherwise.

Also a boat that excel in what regards solo performance cruising, at least for the price. A Pogo 10.50 would do better but it costs much more and would not do so well in regatta, being is rating even higher.

Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #6070  
Old 02-06-2014
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,663
Thanks: 1
Thanked 74 Times in 70 Posts
Rep Power: 4
bobperry will become famous soon enough
Re: Interesting Sailboats

"Bob, there is no better way to take conclusions about the sailing performance of a boat than looking at his rating, that is high, or looking at his racing performance, if it is a performance one...and the boat can win making outstanding results in real time even on races with many modern and fast opponents"

Thank you Paulo. I look at ratings all the time. Always have. I look at race results all the time. Always have. I agree they are very good tools for comparisons.
__________________
Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 4 (0 members and 4 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cruising sailboats for sale welch Cruising & Liveaboard Forum 10 04-25-2012 05:20 PM
THE Yacht Builder List T37Chef Boat Review and Purchase Forum 26 07-08-2011 05:51 AM
Noob wonderings and questions about sailing, life at sail and sailboats Vans General Discussion (sailing related) 49 06-20-2011 12:18 AM
A List of ALL sailboats made with layouts? Myblueheaven Boat Review and Purchase Forum 8 10-08-2010 11:32 AM
Failure to Navigate - interesting post on Panbo Blog & from the NewsReader Mass Bay Sailors 0 12-11-2006 06:15 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:09 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.