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  #6071  
Old 02-06-2014
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Silver / B60

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
... My opiniions are not personal attacks on your choices they are simply my opinions. ...

Quote Paulo:"Regarding the type of clients you have that you describe like "discerning clients", they certainly are rich and want luxury boats but they are also quite conservative in their tastes. A discerning taste may also means a taste for speed in cruising and a boat easy to sail solo (with a luxurious interior) and it seems to me that, contrary to the other NA that also designed by Beneteau and Jeanneau, none of your recent clients has that type of discerning taste."

That commenty is just plain silly.


I have asked you plenty times not to be rude on this thread. I an not silly and resent to be called silly.

I will not use rude language but I will point out that you should look better to what the others say before calling them silly. Or better you should think they are but should not say it. It is called to be polite.

I was talking about your recent works and regarding cruising boats. That boat is a daysailer and a weekend cruiser at most.

But by your rude observation it seems that you consider it a performance daysailer. You could have simply asked, instead of calling me silly, if I did not consider it a performance daysailor and I would have said politely that no, that is not the case. Certainly the boat is a relatively fast daysailor due to its lenght but not a performance one and my opinion is not from now but from many months ago. This is what I said when Faster asked my opinion about it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
....


Certainly a beautiful boat and also an extreme boat regarding several counts:

A 60ft day sailor, very narrow with a small long interior, a big draft and a nice narrow deep bulbed keel.

This is a sailboat that will need a relatively small sail area relatively to its length, a boat that will take advantage of a big LOA and relatively big LWL to be a fast boat, particularly upwind. The narrow hull will not generate a lot of form stability, it is a boat that needs to heel to create RM. With any considerable amount of wind this boat will go fast upwind but with a lot of heel.

I understand and respect the intention to make the boat accordingly with semiotic image of a past traditional model, a long canoe body. That gives a beautiful boat but that double end takes away the possibility of increasing that already small for stability, particularly downwind.

Here you have another American very marrow boat, certainly more sportive, using a shape of hull and transom that will provide more form stability:



But the Silver is a very particular boat certainly for a very particular owner to whom maximizing performance will not be central, neither the interior space in what regards pleasantness or space volume or the possibility to sail in not deep waters. Probably beauty, pleasure of sailing and easy speed are what the owner wants and I have no doubt the boat will provide that.

Anyway, talking about an one off is completely different than talking about a production model. A production model is made to please to a market segment, a one off is made to please a owner. If the owner is completely satisfied and his dreams were fulfilled, than it is a great boat even if it will not please or satisfy the needs of any other sailor. Regarding a production model, it is more complicated since the designer is not trying to satisfy only one client but the needs and desires of many people.
On a performance boat, cruiser or daysailer, sailing potential is the essence of the boat and everything regarding its hull design and rig takes precedence and it is there to increase overall sailing performance.

A performance boat is in what regards the hull and rig has to be a truly functional boat, you don't use there decorative elements or elements that are less effective regarding sailing then others:

You don't use a round transom since that besides providing little drag and good upwind performance is overall less efficient than a transom that provides more form stability without increasing significantly the drag upwind.

You use a balanced hull regarding downwind and upwind best performances and not one that is only maximized for upwind and that will not allow a very good performance downwind.

There is a good reason why rounded bows and very narrow boats are not used today in racing and that's because those shapes and options are not the best in what regards overall performance and on a performance daysailer, cruiser or racer, bettering the performance is what counts.

I will post a daysailer designed under a performance perspective by the Luca Brenta team. It has the same lenght of the Silver and has already some years:













Silly? I don't think so. What I call a performance boat may be different than what you call a performance boat, but not silly. The B60 having a lot more hull form stability than your boat (not only by a superior beam but also by a more efficient transom design) has almost 60% of B/D ratio and this will give you the potential of the boat downwind, without compromising too much (if any) upwind potential. the boat will also have a far better performance reaching.

As I said that is a design with already some years. Probably if the B60 was designed now it would be more like the C42, a Luca Brenta team 2012 design: a bit more beam (even if it still a narrow boat) and chines.



If you were on the market, I mean if someone was building that boat in a small production basis, your boat would have to compete with boats like this one (and there are more) not only in performance as in interior space, cockpit space and overall comfort.

Off course it is not so and as I said before, as long as the client is satisfied, it is a great design.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 02-06-2014 at 02:25 PM.
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  #6072  
Old 02-06-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

To be accurate Paulo that is not a "round transom". That is no transom. We call that a "double ender" and it is exactly what the client asked for. As for stability, we have lots of it with 10' draft and a big bulb the VPP's show the boat be very stilff and the LPS is around 162 degrees! Walking around on the boat at the dock it doesn't move. This is something took into consideration as part of the normal design process. I don't guess.

Luca Brenta has been a favorite designer of mine for many years. I love his work. But he has his style and I have mine. I'll just continue doing my style. In can still admire Brenta's work. If my work annoys you then that's not my problem. My style is in no way connected to your taste in yachts. I suspect we eat different food. We wear different clothes. We listen to diferent music. We like different boats. Diversity is a good thing.
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  #6073  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Talking 'bout chines...the new RM 890 is sailing! I'm wondering if that reverse bow aids with a softer dig-in.
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  #6074  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by HMoll View Post


This is a link to a clip of a 350 that was featured on Sailing Anarchy highlighting the "massive leeway" evident in the video. You start to wonder if the port tack 410 was having similar control issues, but what is evident in the video is what happens when the Elan's chine digs in beyond "ideal" heel, adding flotation aft. Maybe not loosing rudder control, but maybe the shape is lifting the keel too much out of the water, loosing the groove?
...
Hans
Hans, I can see very little regarding the boat upwind potential except that the boat is bad sailed with two much canvas and is trying to avoid another boat.

When of the things that I think it could be better on Elan 350/360 is the B/D ratio, taking into account the torpedo keel and draft. Sure the boat works well, as a huge form stability but gains little in RM if it is heeled a lot and can lose effectiveness in that situation. That is not typical of this boats but typical of inexpensive mass market cruiser racers.

Having a much bigger B/D ratio would imply a stronger hull and a more expensive boat. That's the case regarding the A35, or the JPK 10.10. That's one of the reasons they are faster and also one of the reasons why they are more expensive

Regards

Paulo
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  #6075  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
To be accurate Paulo that is not a "round transom". That is no transom. We call that a "double ender" and it is exactly what the client asked for. As for stability, we have lots of it with 10' draft and a big bulb the VPP's show the boat be very stilff and the LPS is around 162 degrees! Walking around on the boat at the dock it doesn't move. This is something took into consideration as part of the normal design process. I don't guess.

Luca Brenta has been a favorite designer of mine for many years. I love his work. But he has his style and I have mine. I'll just continue doing my style. In can still admire Brenta's work. If my work annoys you then that's not my problem. My style is in no way connected to your taste in yachts. I suspect we eat different food. We wear different clothes. We listen to diferent music. We like different boats. Diversity is a good thing.
Bob, I like many types of yachts including some of yours. Here in what we seem to disagree is in what we call a performance boat and regarding a performance boat concept, being it a racer, a daysailer or a cruiser.

your work does not annoy me. You calling me silly does annoys me.

Regards

Paulo
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  #6076  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by HMoll View Post
Talking 'bout chines...the new RM 890 is sailing! I'm wondering if that reverse bow aids with a softer dig-in.
The effect if any will be a very marginal one regarding a straight bow. The bow is just slightly inverted. Some more cm on the water line I suppose.

Regards

Paulo
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  #6077  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
The effect if any will be a very marginal one regarding a straight bow. The bow is just slightly inverted. Some more cm on the water line I suppose.

Regards

Paulo
Any word on when they will update the RM1060? It seems like the other day it was launched and suddenly it's the oldest design of their fleet! I saw your post on a bigger one. Impressive. Also Pogo's 10.50 is looking dated after the launch of the 50 & 30. Funny, you can scroll back on the 600+ pages of this thread and pinpoint when all of these came out.
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  #6078  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by HMoll View Post
Any word on when they will update the RM1060? It seems like the other day it was launched and suddenly it's the oldest design of their fleet! I saw your post on a bigger one. Impressive. Also Pogo's 10.50 is looking dated after the launch of the 50 & 30. Funny, you can scroll back on the 600+ pages of this thread and pinpoint when all of these came out.
No, the RM is a pretty recent boat. I guess you will have to wait more 2 or 3 years for a remake of the boat, probably a MKII using the same hull.

Yes the Pogo 10,50 I believe it will be sooner even if the boat has a fantastic performance the ones that buy that type of boat like to have boats that benefice of all new developments so I believe you will see soon a Pogo 10,50 with a new hull, one with chines

But I believe that the biggest news will come from Benetau and from the First series were several boats have already several years. They have no more the First 50 available on their site. If you remember, the 50 was the first of the new line and defined the looks of all the line (till the 35ft) so the new model will be very important because I think it will have that role again.

The 50ft was designed by Philipe Briand as well as the 45. The 45 proved well racing and sold well but the 40 that is a lot alike but was designed by Farr did not so well. The boat proved well in racing but never was a popular performance cruiser (very small anchor locker). The 35 that was designed by Farr is the more popular boat, specially in what regards performance cruising.

The First 30 is a JK design but it was a bit of a flop in what regards racing and cruising. The boat looked really great but in what regards rating things were very difficult. It is not also a popular boat in what regards performance cruising.

So I am very curious. Who is going to design the big one? One of the above or a specialist in IRC racing? Farr has not being making many new designs on the last two years, with exception from some Bavaria and the VOR 65.

One thing is for sure, First needs better boats on the First line to have the same success he had with the 44.7, 40.7 and 36,7, or maybe the competition from Dehler, Salona and Elan is now much more though.

Regards

Paulo
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  #6079  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post

"But I believe that the biggest news will come from Benetau and from the First series were several boats have already several years. "
I totally agree. It's time and they have been always a reference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
" First 30 is a JK design but it was a bit of a flop in what regards racing and cruising. The boat looked really great but in what regards rating things were very difficult.
That's when they started using chines on a heavy boat, right?
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

What a surprise, BAVARIA anounced the BAVARIA EASY 9.7 , 49950€ , on a first sight this boat looks interesting on it's price .
The propose for a day sailing with family and friends very similar to 37ft yacht.
What is surprose for me is the price so low, how it is going to affect to other Bavaria models, with a similiar lenght. How people should analise this boat before buying it?
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