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  #6091  
Old 02-08-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by capt vimes View Post
Regarding the kuka light...
I am a little surprised that the kuka is with 3.2 t only 800 kg lighter than an plywood epoxy boat in her race trim one could build in his garage...
Didi 40cr radius chine plywood sailboat
And this homebuild boat has aluminum spars, 1.5 m less draft and 2 t ballast in a conventional keel casing made of steel... I imagine that the kuka has probably a little more than 1 t in her canting keelbulb...
If i look at the effort those guys put in to build the boat, i come to think that her lightness is not that extraordinary, just expensively bought...

And i know you cannot compare these two boats... The kuka has way more power, more sailarea and is by all means a lot faster... I just looked at the weight figures...
Isn't 20% or 800 kilo's still quite a lot, even more than the weight of crew + full gear?

Best regards,

Eric
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  #6092  
Old 02-08-2014
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Kuka-light is really very light:

Quote:
Originally Posted by capt vimes View Post
Regarding the kuka light...
I am a little surprised that the kuka is with 3.2 t only 800 kg lighter than an plywood epoxy boat in her race trim one could build in his garage...
Didi 40cr radius chine plywood sailboat
And this homebuild boat has aluminum spars, 1.5 m less draft and 2 t ballast in a conventional keel casing made of steel... I imagine that the kuka has probably a little more than 1 t in her canting keelbulb...
If i look at the effort those guys put in to build the boat, i come to think that her lightness is not that extraordinary, just expensively bought...

And i know you cannot compare these two boats... The kuka has way more power, more sailarea and is by all means a lot faster... I just looked at the weight figures...
I don't know why you say that the Kuka-Light has a little more than 1 ton of ballast. If we were talking about a mass market cruiser with the same characteristic of others a guess could be made, a relative one, but in what regards top racing boats that is hard to do. Regarding Open an 60's or a class 40 the box rule implies very similar ballasts to each boat but this one is truly an Open boat, following no rule. They don't give the ballast an that can go from 30% to 60%.Probably it is not by accident that they don't disclose the ballast.

Regarding the comparison with a DIDI 40, you are not talking about boats with the same dimensions. The Kuka light is not only bigger as much more beamier: more about 79cm in length and more 120cm in beam.

Comparing with a boat with the same type of hull and beam but smaller, a 40 class racer, for instance a racing Pogo 40 class (s2), the difference is huge: the Pogo with less 62 cm in length and less 10 cm on beam weights more 30% and that's huge considering the Pogo is a smaller boat.

Yes, a 42ft sailboat with a 4.6m beam weighting only 3200 kg is an extraordinarily light boat. Consider for instance that a A35 weights 4450kg and the Elan 320 weights 3690 kg and is one of the lightest boats in its class.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 02-08-2014 at 10:21 PM.
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  #6093  
Old 02-09-2014
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Re: Kuka-light is really very light:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I don't know why you say that the Kuka-Light has a little more than 1 ton of ballast. If we were talking about a mass market cruiser with the same characteristic of others a guess could be made, a relative one, but in what regards top racing boats that is hard to do. Regarding Open an 60's or a class 40 the box rule implies very similar ballasts to each boat but this one is truly an Open boat, following no rule. They don't give the ballast an that can go from 30% to 60%.Probably it is not by accident that they don't disclose the ballast.
Yes - that was an guess and looking at the bulb in all the images available, i do not see that it weighs in access of say 50 % of displacement...

Quote:
Regarding the comparison with a DIDI 40, you are not talking about boats with the same dimensions. The Kuka light is not only bigger as much more beamier: more about 79cm in length and more 120cm in beam.
What are you talking about?
The didi 40cr is just 10 cm shorter, has less beam but more freeboard and superstructure...

Quote:
Comparing with a boat with the same type of hull and beam but smaller, a 40 class racer, for instance a racing Pogo 40 class (s2), the difference is huge: the Pogo with less 62 cm in length and less 10 cm on beam weights more 30% and that's huge considering the Pogo is a smaller boat.

Yes, a 42ft sailboat with a 4.6m beam weighting only 3200 kg is an extraordinarily light boat. Consider for instance that a A35 weights 4450kg and the Elan 320 weights 3690 kg and is one of the lightest boats in its class.

Regards

Paulo
I am sorry, but you obviously did not get my point.
In plain: the keel construction and ballast alone weighs well over 2 t on the dixi...
That means that in race trim the whole hull plus hardware, rig and sails weighs less than 2 t... Can we agree on that?
I - and you - do not know, what the ballast ratio on the kuka is... But looking at the draft, one might think that the ballast will not exceed 40 % of didpl.
Why, you may ask?
Because "lightness" was standing in big letters on their design brief, as proclaimed on their webpage.
And the canting keel in combination with the big draft means a LOT of power from less weight.
And now go back to the homemade wooden boat and see that this nice little thing has so much weight in its keel and is still only 800 kg heavier... Strange hmmmm?
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  #6094  
Old 02-09-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

"I am sorry, but you obviously did not get my point."
That happens around here.
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  #6095  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
"I am sorry, but you obviously did not get my point."
That happens around here.
I am a bit tired about your insinuations enigmatic phrases and posts that mean nothing. There are other threads for that. Here I want objectivity and clarity.

If you want to say something say it! This statement after Vimes post considering that KuKa-light after all is not a very light boat, even an extraordinary light one, say so.

If you consider that a racing boat that has as given dimensions: Length 12.80 mt, beam 4.60 mt, Draft 3.50 mt, Displacement 3200 kg is not very light, say so and explain why and stop insinuating things.

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Kuka-light is really very light:

Quote:
Originally Posted by capt vimes View Post
...

What are you talking about?
The didi 40cr is just 10 cm shorter, has less beam but more freeboard and superstructure...
...
And now go back to the homemade wooden boat and see that this nice little thing has so much weight in its keel and is still only 800 kg heavier... Strange hmmmm?
If you cannot see the difference in hull area between a boat with a 3.4m beam and one with 4.6m beam hull and the influence that has on the the boat weight (even if they are built identically) what can I say?

I have told you that a top 40 class race boat, with a similar hull ( not a carbon boat but an infused one and built as light as possible, carbon masts and all, weights 4500kg and that means 30% more. If you cannot understand that in what regards weight on comparable sized race boats 30% is HUGE...What can I say?

http://www.akilaria.com/Akilaria%20R...ochure%202.pdf

If you do not understand that if using plywood, epoxy and aluminum masts it was possible to build a lighter class 40 (than with infusion, cored hull and epoxy resins), all class 40 would be built that way...what can I say?

Regards

Paulo
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  #6097  
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Comet 62

And surprise... surprise, it is a Cat

I knew already that they were going to propose cats on their line and I was very interested and curious. Well my curiosity was satisfied in Dusseldorf and beautiful boats they are, designed by Marc Lombard. They have there models of the two first ones, a 62 and a 37. Let's look at the 62 :





And cats will not be the only news on Comet (Comar shipyard), they will be Carbon boats. I had already heard some comments coming from Comar about building carbon boats with the proper tools and techniques not to be a very dificult or even considerably more expensive than building epoxy vinylester infused boats. Well I can only hope that will not only be true but also that they will decide to expand that technique and materials to the monohull line

They say about the new cat line:

"Comar’s 2014 begins flying the Cat banner “because they are comfortable, easy to handle and control and because we are keen on the idea of creating a multihull with a fast and aggressive profile yet maintaining the comfort below deck. We noticed an affinity in Marc Lombard’s designs with the present Comet range in production and hence collaboration with Marc seemed a natural choice for the start-up of this new range which, starting with a Comet Cat 62 will then move on to an 82’ and a 37’ "


I will hope that affinity from Comar with Marc Lombard will mean also that the next Comet Monohulls will be designed by Marc. I cannot wait to see a Comet monohull design by him. Comet monohulls stands for performance cruising and also regatta and offshore racing and now that short crew racing has becoming bigger and bigger in IRC, a very polivalent boat, able to be good at performance cruising, good at short crew racing and good at full crew racing makes all the sense. Marc Lombard is one of the few Na that design such a boat, competitive in several sectors.

Data for COMET 62 CAT: LOA: 18.97m LWL: 18.80m BOA: 10.23m Beam in between axes hull: 7.20m Forward freeboard: 2.20m Light Displacement: 17.00t Light CE Displacement: 18.50t Full Loaded Displacement: 25.00t Draught (board down): 3.58m Draught (board up): 1.62m Total height / Dwl: 28.70m mast Height: 26.40m Sail Area - Main: 130 m≤ - Solent selftacking: 74.5 m≤ - Furling genoa: 102 m≤ - Code 0: 130 m≤ - Staysail: 60 m≤ - gennaker: 160 m≤ - Spi assy: 300 m≤ Diesel Engines 2 x 75 HP Fresh water tanks: 2 x 600l Gas Oil Tanks: 2 x 300l carbon spars, PBO rigging and Spectra Construction Composite sandwich carbon / epoxy (Hull / Deck / Main bulkheads) crossbeam construction: composite carbon epoxy Accomodation, floorboards, furnatures: sandwich wood.
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Last edited by PCP; 02-09-2014 at 05:23 PM.
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  #6098  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Chill Paulo. You are not the Pope.
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  #6099  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Chill Paulo. You are not the Pope.
It seems that you have nothing of relevant to say regarding the Kuka-Light to be a very light boat and continue to post meaningless things.

Yes I am not the Pope. I thought it was obvious to all.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 02-09-2014 at 05:40 PM.
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  #6100  
Old 02-09-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

This is a public forum. People can voice their opinions here. That's what makes it fun. Diversity! Everyone has a say. It's the way the internet works. It's not your private sand box. The last time I looked, you don't make the rules.

What makes it fun for me is the diversity. I like to hear a wide range of ideas and opinions. I certainly do not need anyone dictating to me who I should think. I watch sports programs on TV with the sound muted. I can see what is happening. I can figure it out for myself. I sure as hell don't need a TV guy who has never played professional sports in his life explaining to me what happened and just why it happened.

I read all the posts. Sometimes I choose to comment, sometimes I don't. Do you have a problem with that? I like this thread. It is informative. Show me the boats. I can form my own opinions.
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