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post #6101 of Old 02-10-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

No pics of the Comet 37 CAT yet?
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Comet 37

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Originally Posted by robelz View Post
No pics of the Comet 37 CAT yet?
Sorry, what I can find is very bad. They had models on the stand and I saw them. The 37 has the same rounded lines and inverted bows of the bigger boat but it is impossible to make a 37 ft cruising cat that looks good. They always look too high for the length with this size, at least for my taste.

I like the wheels position, not behind the cabin, like on most, but on the side of the boat with a good view forward. It seems that it will have (like the big one) two versions, one more sportive with daggerboards the other with fixed keels. with the one with Daggerboards the 37 has a draft of 2.24m and that is a lot, so probably will sail well upwind.

There are not many cruising cats of this size but comparing with a famous and good one, the Mahe 36 evolution from Fontaine Pajot, we can see that even on the fixed keel version the Comet has more draft (1.3 to 1.1m) is bigger but lighter (4.5T to 5.0T) and also narrower 5.65 to 5.90m. The Comet has more sail (78 m2 to 70m2). The Mahe is a great cat and a fast one. The comet 37 should be faster.

To compare with the main cat market and looking at the Lagoon 380, that is only 25cm bigger, the difference in performance should be huge since the Lagoon weights 7.3T against the 4.5T from Comet that has 1m2 more of upwind sail area.

Like the monohulls, the Comet 37 will be a performance cat, specially on the version with movable daggerboards.

This is what I could find... not much and that's why I had not posted about it:





COMET 37 CAT - technical specifications:
Length of hull: 11.30 m
LOA: 11.30 m
BOA: 5.65 m
Forward freeboard: 1.56 m
Light Displacement: 4.5 t
Full Loaded displacement: 6.5 t
Draught (board down): 2.24 m
Draught (board up): 0.95 m
Draught (fixed keel): 1.33 m
Total height/DwL: 16.94 m
Mast height: 14.42 m
Sail Area - Main: 45 m
- Genoa: 33 m
- Code 0: 44 m
- Gennaker: 53 m
- Spi assy: 80 m
Diesel Engines: 2x20 Hp
Fresh water tanks: 2x150 L
Gas oil Tanks: 2x80 L


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Last edited by PCP; 02-10-2014 at 06:19 PM.
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Here's another image of the Comet Cat 37
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Comet 37 Cat

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Originally Posted by HMoll View Post
Here's another image of the Comet Cat 37


Where the hell did you find that picture
There was more there?

It seems nicer than on the model I saw and certainly very nice for a 37ft cat.

Regards

Paulo


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Bavaria 41s

Some time ago I posted about the new Bavaria 41s that seems an interesting boat for the price (assuming they have changed the anchor locker regarding the previous model):

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Contrary to other mass market cruisers that offer performance versions the one from Bavaria is a more serious one with a lighter boat, a true deep lead keel (2.30) a bigger and better mast, Carbon spy pole and composite steering wheels, backstay adjuster more sail area, main sheet system with ball bearing cockpit traveler, genoa cars with trim line system, 6 cockpit winches (instead of 4 and bigger), removable cockpit table and an open transom. All sail hardware is of better quality.

The boat is used for serious racing in Germany, particularly the Match racing German leg of the World's championship. Here the previous boat, the 40s.
...
The keel is IRC optimized and the boat has a good rating. It can be an interesting option for someone that don't want to spend more on a performance cruiser but want a competitive boat that is also a great cruiser since the interior is the same.

As usual they are lousy at Bavaria in what regards information and we cannot have the weight of this boat. They give it as being heavier 260 kg regarding the cruiser when this boat has less ballast, has not the big swimming platform and has lighter components. A relatively heavy boat anyway.

The boat looks a lot nicer with the Open transom.
Now they have a video about it. The interior is the same as the 41, the exterior is much more interesting, at least for someone that likes to sail and have fun while doing it, trimming perfectly the sails. Have a look:



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Re: Cruising and racing with wing sails

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I have been following the developments regarding this technology regarding cruising boats. In fact it is not a new thing, the French have toyed with it on the 80s in what concerns offshore racing boats but the concept never proved to have reliability and enough efficiency.

It seems to me things are changing fast and the ones that seem to be leading the ball in what concerns practicability, costs and a possible utilization on cruising boats are One sails, the Italian sail company. In fact they believe that in 15 years almost all boats will have some kind of a wing sail.

I have saw their first video (that I will re-post at the bottom) but only recently I saw one with a comparison on the water between two identical boats, one with wing sail the other with conventional high quality sails and the results are conclusive even if the sail is still in development:

The boats are Seascape 18 and we can see that the wing boat is not only faster as it can point 5 better upwind and sail downwind at a bigger angle.

The wing can be reefed and I believe that this type of soft sail wings will not take long to be available, first on racers and after in performance cruisers.

Here a previous movie with that sail on a previous phase of development.

and they are not the only ones working on it:

Paulo, glad to see you starting to warm up to the idea of the wing sail. When I first brought it up, you weren't as impressed! Might be better for solo sailing as well!

Regards,
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Last edited by opc11; 02-12-2014 at 12:20 AM.
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Re: Cruising and racing with wing sails

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Originally Posted by opc11 View Post
Paulo, glad to see you starting to warm up to the idea of the wing sail. When I first brought it up, you weren't as impressed! Might be better for solo sailing as well!

Regards,
Hi opc!

Regarding being better for solo racing, maybe, but it will take more time. It has to do with the huge sail areas used and with the need to reef easily and have a very reliable mechanism. The sails have to be more complex and that means (at least on a development phase that can take many years) less reliable.

Some experiences have being done on the mini racers, a true laboratory were much of the design, rigging and sail technology have been initially developed before passing to bigger racers, but till know without much sucess in what regards overall performance.

Curiously this time probably the system will be developed first in cruising than in offshore racing since Beneteau is taking it very seriously: They have equipped a Sense 46 with one and have one of the inventors and developers of the system working for them in a very serious way so serious that the boat was already been provided to the press for testing.



https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...s-Decembre.pdf

I have been following and reading those tests on the French press and the good new is that the system works in what regards not only sailing but superior easiness in handling and reefing is easy. Things go so well that Beneteau says that intends to put on the market the first mass produced boat with a wing sail in two years.

The negative point is that, at least at this stage is not a performance contribution but one regarding easiness that is of main importance in what regards cruising. Yes the sail works well but the sail area is inferior and the overall performance of the Sense 46 with wing sail is worse than the one with conventional sails, not much but clearly worse.

I have no doubts that in the future it will be possible to have a superior performance and use the system also in what regards performance and racing boats...but I think it will take more time.

That's why on that post that you quoted I give a great importance to that testing with two Seascape 18 regarding the One sails solution, this one:

Movie:

Aile souple : la voile du futur ?

That is the first time I see a a performance cruiser with a reefable wing sail beating an identical boat with conventional but top quality sails.

But you are right, this development is of great importance and thanks to the involvement of Beneteau is happening more faster than what I thought and you were right about that

Beneteau is taking a comfortable and smart way regarding the soft wing sail mixing two technologies, the aerorig, tested in many boats including racing ones and the soft wing sail technology.

regarding aerorig, have a look:





This is the system that Beneteau uses:





In fact it makes all the sense, as it is usual on Beneteau:

the big problem of the aerorig is cost. The one developed by Beneteau is should also cost more than a traditional system but much less than a traditional aerorig because the dimensions and charges are much less important, being the sail more efficient for square meter and being almost central regarding the mast. This way the aerorig is much smaller in horizontal length, regarding its arms, much cheaper and with less charges involved.

That is not by accident that they are testing the system on their top and more expensive cruising range, the Sense, where the extra cost of this system will not be so relevant to the cost of the boat than on the other series. Very clever and probably the way to go in what regards cruising boats.

Also very cleaver from Beneteau that have being many times cutting edge regarding cruising sail boats (in what regards design) and having a less good phase some years ago (in what regards innovation) is again at the top, not only with the wing development but with the Sense series.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 02-11-2014 at 01:34 PM.
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The "new" Bavaria 51

Not entirely new since it is a MkII regarding the older model the 50. The Hull is Farr designed and the previous boat featured already a very nice two rudder set up a very balanced hull and a nice displacement for a mass market 50ft: 14.1T

The beam (4.67m) is about the same as the one from the Jeanneau 509, less tham the Hanse 505 (4.75m) the Dufour 500 (4.80) or Sense 50 (4.86m). If we do not consider the Hunter 50, an older design (4.47m), the Bavaria, like the Jeanneau have the more "classsic" type of hulls, while all the others have opted by hulls more based on solo racers, with more beam and the beam more pulled back.

Those characteristics gives them much bigger transoms and cockpits as well as a sailing with less heel as well as slightly easy and comfortable downwind and beam reach performance but a slightly worse upwind and light wind performance, generally speaking. We would have to see boat by boat or even test them at the same time on the water because there are more factors that count to upwind performance like the type of frontal sail, running rig design, type of mast and back stay tensioner, sail area /displacement among others.

Anyway the difference should not be that big among them in what sail performance regards.

A nice boat, certainly nicer than the MKI with a much nicer cabin design and interior. The hull was already a good one as we can see on the last Video regarding the previous boat, the 50.

The New 51:





A sail test with the MKI, the 50:



The Bavaria 50 is by far the less expensive 50ft in Europe and probably also on the US (Standard boat delivered for $394,707). A lot of boat for the money (in what regards sailing potential and cruising amenities/interior space) and that's what defines a good mass market boat


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post #6109 of Old 02-11-2014
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Sailjet 40

Hey guys,

After seeing this video, made by my swedish fellas at Hamnen.se, all Bavarias in the world just seem a bit dull...

https://hamnenplay.solidtango.com/vi...905-sailjet-40

Best regards,
Mr W
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Love it!
Le blog du chantier | Mojito 888
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