Interesting Sailboats - Page 613 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Chat  
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree1263Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #6121  
Old 02-12-2014
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 194
Thanks: 5
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 4
opc11 is on a distinguished road
Re: Cruising and racing with wing sails

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Hi opc!

Regarding being better for solo racing, maybe, but it will take more time. It has to do with the huge sail areas used and with the need to reef easily and have a very reliable mechanism. The sails have to be more complex and that means (at least on a development phase that can take many years) less reliable.´

Some experiences have being done on the mini racers, a true laboratory were much of the design, rigging and sail technology have been initially developed before passing to bigger racers, but till know without much sucess in what regards overall performance.

Curiously this time probably the system will be developed first in cruising than in offshore racing since Beneteau is taking it very seriously: They have equipped a Sense 46 with one and have one of the inventors and developers of the system working for them in a very serious way so serious that the boat was already been provided to the press for testing.

I have been following and reading those tests on the French press and the good new is that the system works in what regards not only sailing but superior easiness in handling and reefing is easy. Things go so well that Beneteau says that intends to put on the market the first mass produced boat with a wing sail in two years.

The negative point is that, at least at this stage is not a performance contribution but one regarding easiness that is of main importance in what regards cruising. Yes the sail works well but the sail area is inferior and the overall performance of the Sense 46 with wing sail is worse than the one with conventional sails, not much but clearly worse.

I have no doubts that in the future it will be possible to have a superior performance and use the system also in what regards performance and racing boats...but I think it will take more time.

That's why on that post that you quoted I give a great importance to that testing with two Seascape 18 regarding the One sails solution, this one:

Movie:

That is the first time I see a a performance cruiser with a reefable wing sail beating an identical boat with conventional but top quality sails.

But you are right, this development is of great importance and thanks to the involvement of Beneteau is happening more faster than what I thought and you were right about that

Beneteau is taking a comfortable and smart way regarding the soft wing sail mixing two technologies, the aerorig, tested in many boats including racing ones and the soft wing sail technology.

regarding aerorig, have a look:

This is the system that Beneteau uses:

In fact it makes all the sense, as it is usual on Beneteau:

the big problem of the aerorig is cost. The one developed by Beneteau is should also cost more than a traditional system but much less than a traditional aerorig because the dimensions and charges are much less important, being the sail more efficient for square meter and being almost central regarding the mast. This way the aerorig is much smaller in horizontal length, regarding its arms, much cheaper and with less charges involved.

That is not by accident that they are testing the system on their top and more expensive cruising range, the Sense, where the extra cost of this system will not be so relevant to the cost of the boat than on the other series. Very clever and probably the way to go in what regards cruising boats.

Also very cleaver from Beneteau that have being many times cutting edge regarding cruising sail boats (in what regards design) and having a less good phase some years ago (in what regards innovation) is again at the top, not only with the wing development but with the Sense series.

Regards

Paulo
Yes, I should have been more clear. My interest in this rig is for cruising not racing.

I wonder if it will be more expensive because they think it will be a big selling feature (easier to sail, less rigging to manage, less costs associated w/ maintaining the rigging) or because it's actually more expensive. My guess is the prior. I can't really tell...does this type of rig negate the need for a main traveler?

I believe some of the soft wings can be used in conjunction with foresails. Perhaps when those are accounted for, the overall performance will surpass "conventional" rigs.

I'm ECSTATIC that a large production boat builder has set their sites on this advancement. I think it will be well received in due time.

Heck of a catch (the camera) in that last movie.

Regards,

Last edited by opc11; 02-12-2014 at 12:34 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #6122  
Old 02-12-2014
capt vimes's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 626
Thanks: 8
Thanked 17 Times in 17 Posts
Rep Power: 2
capt vimes is on a distinguished road
Re: Sailjet 40

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Now I understand why they designed the hull that way on the new Hunter 40...they just forget to put the big engine in

That seems to have a good performance downwind and a weak one upwind. I will stay with a same sized Bavaria (if I could not have nothing faster). Even much more heavier the Bavaria will be faster sailing (except downwind) and I just don't have the money for the Gasoline. Fact is the I am always looking for the more efficient RPM to have the better performance wasting less.

But that is just me and I sail thousands of miles for season. That super Mac can be the right answer for someone that just sails at weekends, or likes to motor a lot and have the money for it (a tank with 500L says it all).

I fully agree that if you motor, the faster the better (if money is not a problem) and faster than that on a "sailboat" is hard to do. Good looking too:

Sailjet

Thanks for posting, certainly an interesting boat in its way.

Regards

Paulo
weird boat...
one sees that their focus was on motor boating when you look at the sailing hardware alone:
the winches are not even self tailing and the aft sheet is brought back to the winch via the cleat...

there is also no information on the ballast apart from "Keel AISI 316 + 440 - 550 kg lead" and i think they are talking here about the central daggerboard (for what it is).
i cannot believe that this would be the only ballast for a "sailing" boat with 4500 - 5000 kg of displacement...
brochure: http://www.in-time-yachts.fi/images/...eng_bw_web.pdf
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #6123  
Old 02-12-2014
capt vimes's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 626
Thanks: 8
Thanked 17 Times in 17 Posts
Rep Power: 2
capt vimes is on a distinguished road
Re: Interesting Sailboats

oh and btw even if its older:
here is also one of those breed type of fast-motoring-sailboats:
POWERSAIL NEW ZEALAND - Innovation, Technology and Passion
but while the powersail looks like a real sailboat (2.3 t ballast on 3.3 m draft plus 2 x 1.48 t water ballast) which just happens to have an very powerfull engine on board plus a retractable drive system, the sailjet looks more like a motor boat...
specs of the powersail:
http://www.powersail.co.nz/Powersail...cification.pdf
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #6124  
Old 02-12-2014
bjung's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Blue Ridge
Posts: 473
Thanks: 5
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 7
bjung is on a distinguished road
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by opc11 View Post
Nothing short of pure arrogance. MAJOR BUMMER.

Bob, I had much more respect for you before tonight.
Can we please stop the bobperry bashing?! His only infraction was disagreeing with the "Pope", the words "silly" and "stupid". Does it deserve to in return being called arrogant, rude, self-centered, etc. over and over and over? That to me is just, well...rude and silly!
I really enjoy this thread, and the participation of Bob Perry is very welcome. It adds another view, a very competent one, from the only NA here. I sure hope he sticks around and keeps giving his candid opinion, even if opposing views are not acceptable here.
funjohnson likes this.

Last edited by bjung; 02-12-2014 at 10:09 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #6125  
Old 02-12-2014
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,195
Thanks: 21
Thanked 102 Times in 85 Posts
Rep Power: 11
PCP will become famous soon enough
Winch location

Quote:
Originally Posted by opc11 View Post
Paulo, I've been trying to pay attention to the location of the cockpit winches in the boats i'm most interested in. You don't see that many with the winches grouped so close to the helm as they are here. I like it from a solo'ing stance.



(anyone) I wonder if other companies are receptive to relocating winches similar to this? Are there any drawbacks to locating them in this way?

thanks,
OPC, glad you are enjoying the thread again and contributing.

Just two comments before going into the subject. To you and all: regarding not repeating photos on quotes that regards photos that are immediately before or very near the post in question. If the photo is needed for a better comprehension, please post it. You don't need to post them all, just the one that matters, like in this case. It helps the discussion.

Regarding Bob Perry also to you and all, independently of what I think about the subject, this is a thread about boats and I absolutely don't want it and will not continue it if it becomes something nasty, aggressive out of topic with continuous chit chat and wise cracks, like happened to the steel boat thread.

Here we talk about boats not about persons. Regarding Bob Perry I am still waiting for a contributing post that does not try to contradict something that I, a post about a new boat were he actually express an opinion about it or about any technical feature on it and I would not say more. Off course I don't mean one of his boats.

Regarding your question:

I would say that there is a very clear tendency regarding putting winches at the reach of a solo sailor and that are most cruisers (with a little help from the wife). There is also a very clear tendency to reduce the number of winches on mass market cruising boats. That has to do with reducing costs but also because most sailors that sail those boats don't use them. If you look to all main market mass produced boats you will see that they have a winch near the wheels (on each side) but the rigging will not allow another winch to be installed. The only exception is Bavaria that has an option for a second winch on the cockpit but far away from the wheel.

But I guess that you are talking about performance boats and there the problem is different. All that does not have a purchase system for the main and that means pretty much all that are bigger than 40ft, have 4 winches on the cockpit (and normally two over the cabin) but here the ideal position is more complicated because in what regards racing or crewed sailing having all the winches grouped together is not a good idea.

I think that it is a very interesting discussion and I will get back to it after refreshing my memory with what the market has to offer in what regards performance cruisers, with some pictures.

Regards

Paulo
opc11 likes this.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 02-12-2014 at 08:35 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #6126  
Old 02-12-2014
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,195
Thanks: 21
Thanked 102 Times in 85 Posts
Rep Power: 11
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Cruising and racing with wing sails

Quote:
Originally Posted by opc11 View Post
Yes, I should have been more clear. My interest in this rig is for cruising not racing.

I wonder if it will be more expensive because they think it will be a big selling feature (easier to sail, less rigging to manage, less costs associated w/ maintaining the rigging) or because it's actually more expensive. My guess is the prior. I can't really tell...does this type of rig negate the need for a main traveler?

I believe some of the soft wings can be used in conjunction with foresails. Perhaps when those are accounted for, the overall performance will surpass "conventional" rigs.

I'm ECSTATIC that a large production boat builder has set their sites on this advancement. I think it will be well received in due time.

Heck of a catch (the camera) in that last movie.

Regards,
Yes, very interesting developments but regarding the rig I think it is very informative the choice of the boat and the series were they are developing it:

They are not developing it on a performance cruiser, like for instance on a First 45 but on the more expensive cruising line. That probably means two things: the priority in the development is not performance neither price.

Anyway if Benetau is developing it it means that they believe it can be produced at prices that can still make their top range boats competitive in what regards selling boats and that is just great.

It also means that they think that the rig offers advantages regarding a traditional rig for cruising...and they are rarely mistaken and that's why they are the biggest sail boat manufacturer. For that and because they know how to associate the best developments on sailboat design to inexpensive cruising boats, making better and affordable boats adapted to what most sailors want. They are leading again, as many times, in what regards mass market cruising boats and not only

Regards

Paulo
EricKLYC and opc11 like this.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #6127  
Old 02-12-2014
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,195
Thanks: 21
Thanked 102 Times in 85 Posts
Rep Power: 11
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Sailjet 40

Quote:
Originally Posted by capt vimes View Post
weird boat...
one sees that their focus was on motor boating when you look at the sailing hardware alone:
the winches are not even self tailing and the aft sheet is brought back to the winch via the cleat...
....
there is also no information on the ballast apart from "Keel AISI 316 + 440 - 550 kg lead" and i think they are talking here about the central daggerboard (for what it is).
i cannot believe that this would be the only ballast for a "sailing" boat with 4500 - 5000 kg of displacement...
brochure: http://www.in-time-yachts.fi/images/...eng_bw_web.pdf
The boat is not really a sailboat but a boat that can use the wind to sail downwind fast or go upwind in light winds and not pointing very well. Reaching will go well in light but at medium winds it would not have the power (RM) to go fast and it will be dangerous in strong winds (sailing).

I would have said that the CE certification for the boat in what regards sailing would not even reach B criteria and that really confuses me since they announce a CE certification A?????

Probably the boat was certified as motorboat not sailing boat? Can MR W shed some light on this subject?

Regarding ballast on the file it is confusing but they also say : "The centreboard has a lead ballast of ca 500 kg cast into AISI 316 steel cover. The water and fuel tanks as well the batteries play an active role in stabilizing the yacht minimizing the need for passive dead weight."

Off course they give the idea that 500kg of ballast and not even with a keel with a low CG, it is enough for the boat giving its lightness but what they mean is that it is enough for that type of boat that is not really a sailboat

Saying that, the boat is what it is and besides the brochure be misleading (and that can be dangerous) it is an interesting mixed boat for that ones that want just that. It is designed by some junior NA under the supervision of Karl-Johan Stråhlmann and Stråhlmann is a great NA, responsible for many good and interesting boats like some Finngulfs, by the cute Maestro and also for the Saare.

I have no doubt that they knew what were doing even if that detail you have posted regarding the rigging shows that regarding sailing some things are really odd and deserved a better thought

...and that certification on A category is really a mystery. I don't understand how the boat can pass the minimum required AVS. MR W, can you have a look at that?

Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #6128  
Old 02-12-2014
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,195
Thanks: 21
Thanked 102 Times in 85 Posts
Rep Power: 11
PCP will become famous soon enough
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjung View Post
Can we please stop the bobperry bashing?! His only infraction was disagreeing with the "Pope", the words "silly" and "stupid". ...

Also, there have been more than one occasion where Paulo has exhibited a very arrogant and rude stance as well, here and in other threads. As in "Americans like crude, less skillfull sports (boats)"
I pretty much run this thread but I am no Pope here even if the object of this thread is well marked on the first post.

Putting quotes out of context and not exact quotes it is not appropriated nor nice.

Generically what American sailors like is expressed on the American sailboat market, and that's what I was talking about when said the above "quote" that is obviously accurate regarding the comparison with European sailors and European market: On america there is not any performance cruiser builder with any serious penetration on the market and the bigger one (Jboats) sell more performance cruisers on Europe than on the States. All European performance cruisers or don't have US dealers or if they have their sales are just residual regarding the all of American sailboat market.

As performance cruisers are less crude and more skillful boats to sail and his percentage on the market is incomparably bigger on Europe that in the states I don't see why you disagree with me or why you think that is an arrogant statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjung View Post
, " Americans are just behind times in what regards the estetics of boats"
Here I think you are messing up. I had not said that and I certainly did not have talked about "estetics", that is a subjective matter but about boat design quality that is an objective one. It seems you don't know the difference and that confuses you. I use (and used) the term in a technical way that has little to do with aesthetics:

"designers attempt to optimize a design candidate for known constraints and objectives,.......Interior Designer implies that there is more of an emphasis on Planning, Functional design and effective use of space involved in this profession, as compared to interior decorating....An interior designer may wish to specialize in a particular type of interior design in order to develop technical knowledge specific to that area."

wiki

what I said related with boat interior design that in American brands is still made by the staff from the shipyard and not by the best dedicated professional cabinets as it is on most European boats. While European boats are designed by the best NA and the best interior designers (two different teams working together) American mass produced boats are designed by the in the house technicians. That explains the difference in quality, particularly in what regards interior design quality, that again, as I explained, has little to do with aesthetics. You can have different high quality interior design following very different aesthetically lines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjung View Post

(sorry, but the Bene O38, really looks like a bloated tennis shoe!), or, "This boat is ugly. If you like it you must be British!" (Gunfleet 43) and so on....
..
Regarding that comparison with Bob's qualification of the Oceanis 38, he is expressing a fact : "the Bene 038 really look like" I am expressing my personal opinion (and leave that clear) and have the care to say that it is far from unanimous since I say that the British like the boat. I am saying that personally I don't share some of the aesthetic British tastes in boats not saying that they have bad taste or that mine is better, In what regards aesthetics and tastes we enter a very subjective area:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
. .. I don't doubt that it is well built but I wonder if Tony Castro could not have come up with a nicer design. I find the boat really ugly....But I guess that if many British like the boat you can like it to.
As I have said before I don't have no objection to the participation of Bob on this thread providing he does that with me and other members in a normal way and not in a paternalistic way, calling names (stupid, silly, myopic) to all that don't share is views and stop with incomprehensible comments and wise cracks. I am no asking more or less than what I ask to myself or to all the others that contribute to this thread. Provided he does it in a "normal" and polite way (as all) I am very pleased to have him around as one of the contributors.

I really don't like this sort of argument here, this thread is about boats and I want a good ambiance here, a convivial and polite one. I Hope this is settled for good.

Regards

Paulo
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by PCP; 02-12-2014 at 10:54 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #6129  
Old 02-12-2014
grumpy old man
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 3,918
Thanks: 1
Thanked 87 Times in 83 Posts
Rep Power: 4
bobperry will become famous soon enough
Re: Interesting Sailboats

Jung:
No worries. I'll watch the thread but I'll keep my comments on the boats to myself.
I appreciate your kind concern.

Paulo doesn't like rude but he is the master of snide and smarm.
I don't care for his myopic view of the world of yachts and yachting and his constant ignorant and stereotypical comments about the "US taste" in boats.
His view that he makes the rules for this public forum are bizarre.

But I do like to look at the various boats he posts. I give him credit for keeping the thread going with interesting boats that for the most part are out of my world. If I didn't see many of the boats here I most probably would never see them. Can't have that.

But, Paulo and I are never going to get along. I'll take responsability for that.
__________________
Please visit my blog. It's fun to read.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Bob's Blog ....

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Please also visit my new web site
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #6130  
Old 02-12-2014
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 252
Thanks: 1
Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post
Rep Power: 3
Mr W is on a distinguished road
Re: Sailjet 40

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Probably the boat was certified as motorboat not sailing boat? Can MR W shed some light on this subject?

Regarding ballast on the file it is confusing but they also say : "The centreboard has a lead ballast of ca 500 kg cast into AISI 316 steel cover. The water and fuel tanks as well the batteries play an active role in stabilizing the yacht minimizing the need for passive dead weight."

...and that certification on A category is really a mystery. I don't understand how the boat can pass the minimum required AVS. MR W, can you have a look at that?

Regards

Paulo
Well, the guys in the video point out that the batteries and engine are used as part of ballast, but not much more is said about this. I guess that using two masts lower the point of pressure, making the need for ballast less than on a normal sailboat. They don´t mention anything regarding type of category for certification, but I think it must be as sailboat.

I find the boat very interesting, not saying though that I would want to own one I think I´ll stick to my Dragonfly!

In the test, they claim that the boat actually sail pretty well...! I can´t see this boat pointing very well though, not with the sails sheeted so far out to the sides. Anyway, thought it was interesting enough to post about

Mr W
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 9 (0 members and 9 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cruising sailboats for sale welch Cruising & Liveaboard Forum 10 04-25-2012 05:20 PM
THE Yacht Builder List T37Chef Boat Review and Purchase Forum 26 07-08-2011 05:51 AM
Noob wonderings and questions about sailing, life at sail and sailboats Vans General Discussion (sailing related) 49 06-20-2011 12:18 AM
A List of ALL sailboats made with layouts? Myblueheaven Boat Review and Purchase Forum 8 10-08-2010 11:32 AM
Failure to Navigate - interesting post on Panbo Blog & from the NewsReader Mass Bay Sailors 0 12-11-2006 06:15 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:42 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.