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  #6121  
Old 02-11-2014
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Re: Cruising and racing with wing sails

Quote:
Originally Posted by opc11 View Post
Paulo, glad to see you starting to warm up to the idea of the wing sail. When I first brought it up, you weren't as impressed! Might be better for solo sailing as well!

Regards,
Hi opc!

Regarding being better for solo racing, maybe, but it will take more time. It has to do with the huge sail areas used and with the need to reef easily and have a very reliable mechanism. The sails have to be more complex and that means (at least on a development phase that can take many years) less reliable.´

Some experiences have being done on the mini racers, a true laboratory were much of the design, rigging and sail technology have been initially developed before passing to bigger racers, but till know without much sucess in what regards overall performance.

Curiously this time probably the system will be developed first in cruising than in offshore racing since Beneteau is taking it very seriously: They have equipped a Sense 46 with one and have one of the inventors and developers of the system working for them in a very serious way so serious that the boat was already been provided to the press for testing.



https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...s-Decembre.pdf

I have been following and reading those tests on the French press and the good new is that the system works in what regards not only sailing but superior easiness in handling and reefing is easy. Things go so well that Beneteau says that intends to put on the market the first mass produced boat with a wing sail in two years.

The negative point is that, at least at this stage is not a performance contribution but one regarding easiness that is of main importance in what regards cruising. Yes the sail works well but the sail area is inferior and the overall performance of the Sense 46 with wing sail is worse than the one with conventional sails, not much but clearly worse.

I have no doubts that in the future it will be possible to have a superior performance and use the system also in what regards performance and racing boats...but I think it will take more time.

That's why on that post that you quoted I give a great importance to that testing with two Seascape 18 regarding the One sails solution, this one:

Movie:

Aile souple : la voile du futur ?

That is the first time I see a a performance cruiser with a reefable wing sail beating an identical boat with conventional but top quality sails.

But you are right, this development is of great importance and thanks to the involvement of Beneteau is happening more faster than what I thought and you were right about that

Beneteau is taking a comfortable and smart way regarding the soft wing sail mixing two technologies, the aerorig, tested in many boats including racing ones and the soft wing sail technology.

regarding aerorig, have a look:





This is the system that Beneteau uses:





In fact it makes all the sense, as it is usual on Beneteau:

the big problem of the aerorig is cost. The one developed by Beneteau is should also cost more than a traditional system but much less than a traditional aerorig because the dimensions and charges are much less important, being the sail more efficient for square meter and being almost central regarding the mast. This way the aerorig is much smaller in horizontal length, regarding its arms, much cheaper and with less charges involved.

That is not by accident that they are testing the system on their top and more expensive cruising range, the Sense, where the extra cost of this system will not be so relevant to the cost of the boat than on the other series. Very clever and probably the way to go in what regards cruising boats.

Also very cleaver from Beneteau that have being many times cutting edge regarding cruising sail boats (in what regards design) and having a less good phase some years ago (in what regards innovation) is again at the top, not only with the wing development but with the Sense series.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 02-11-2014 at 02:34 PM.
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  #6122  
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The "new" Bavaria 51

Not entirely new since it is a MkII regarding the older model the 50. The Hull is Farr designed and the previous boat featured already a very nice two rudder set up a very balanced hull and a nice displacement for a mass market 50ft: 14.1T

The beam (4.67m) is about the same as the one from the Jeanneau 509, less tham the Hanse 505 (4.75m) the Dufour 500 (4.80) or Sense 50 (4.86m). If we do not consider the Hunter 50, an older design (4.47m), the Bavaria, like the Jeanneau have the more "classsic" type of hulls, while all the others have opted by hulls more based on solo racers, with more beam and the beam more pulled back.

Those characteristics gives them much bigger transoms and cockpits as well as a sailing with less heel as well as slightly easy and comfortable downwind and beam reach performance but a slightly worse upwind and light wind performance, generally speaking. We would have to see boat by boat or even test them at the same time on the water because there are more factors that count to upwind performance like the type of frontal sail, running rig design, type of mast and back stay tensioner, sail area /displacement among others.

Anyway the difference should not be that big among them in what sail performance regards.

A nice boat, certainly nicer than the MKI with a much nicer cabin design and interior. The hull was already a good one as we can see on the last Video regarding the previous boat, the 50.

The New 51:





A sail test with the MKI, the 50:



The Bavaria 50 is by far the less expensive 50ft in Europe and probably also on the US (Standard boat delivered for $394,707). A lot of boat for the money (in what regards sailing potential and cruising amenities/interior space) and that's what defines a good mass market boat
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  #6123  
Old 02-11-2014
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Sailjet 40

Hey guys,

After seeing this video, made by my swedish fellas at Hamnen.se, all Bavarias in the world just seem a bit dull...

https://hamnenplay.solidtango.com/vi...905-sailjet-40

Best regards,
Mr W
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  #6124  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Love it!
Le blog du chantier | Mojito 888
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  #6125  
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Re: Sailjet 40

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr W View Post
Hey guys,

After seeing this video, made by my swedish fellas at Hamnen.se, all Bavarias in the world just seem a bit dull...

https://hamnenplay.solidtango.com/vi...905-sailjet-40

Best regards,
Mr W
Now I understand why they designed the hull that way on the new Hunter 40...they just forget to put the big engine in

That seems to have a good performance downwind and a weak one upwind. I will stay with a same sized Bavaria (if I could not have nothing faster). Even much more heavier the Bavaria will be faster sailing (except downwind) and I just don't have the money for the Gasoline. Fact is the I am always looking for the more efficient RPM to have the better performance wasting less.

But that is just me and I sail thousands of miles for season. That super Mac can be the right answer for someone that just sails at weekends, or likes to motor a lot and have the money for it (a tank with 500L says it all).

I fully agree that if you motor, the faster the better (if money is not a problem) and faster than that on a "sailboat" is hard to do. Good looking too:



Sailjet

Thanks for posting, certainly an interesting boat in its way.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 02-11-2014 at 04:03 PM.
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  #6126  
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Mojito 888

Quote:
Originally Posted by robelz View Post
Yes, that looks perfect and I can see the effect that panoramic view will have on the impression of interior space. Just great, I agree:



and since we talk about Malango, a video with a 1045 making a delivery trip in last November with winds from 20 to 40K. They say the boat was always controllable, the never put the spy up and even so the average speed was between 8 and 12 K surfing 14/16 with a point at 16.9K. 160.75 Nm in 19h00, at an average speed of 8.46K. Not bad for a 34ft boat not racing with sailors that didn't have experience with that boat on strong winds.



Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 02-11-2014 at 03:53 PM.
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  #6127  
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Re: Mojito 888

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Yes, that looks perfect and I can see the effect that panoramic view will have on the impression of interior space. Just great, I agree:
The other point is the possibility to have a look out under autopilot without going outside... Seems to be a new trend (have a look at the JPK 10.80's "side windows").
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  #6128  
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Re: Mojito 888

Quote:
Originally Posted by robelz View Post
The other point is the possibility to have a look out under autopilot without going outside... Seems to be a new trend (have a look at the JPK 10.80's "side windows").
Yes certainly a tendency, more now than on the past but I would say that who started that a tendency in performance cruisers was RM and Marc Lombard. You can look forward on a RM even if the glass is not vertical (now it is even more inclined). That works even better with the normal small pitching movement of a sailboat.



Or maybe Finot on the Comet 11 a very advanced boat for 1977:



http://www.finot.com/bateaux/ancienb...met11_pres.htm
http://www.finot.com/bateaux/ancienb.../nautcadre.htm

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 02-11-2014 at 09:55 PM.
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  #6129  
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Re: Comet 37 Cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post

Where the hell did you find that picture
There was more there?

It seems nicer than on the model I saw and certainly very nice for a 37ft cat.

Regards

Paulo
german Comet website!
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Re: Comet 37 Cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by HMoll View Post
german Comet website!
That's odd. On the main Italian site they have nothing yet.

I like the boat on the home page of German Comet site



But I don't understand why they don't have there the photo with two wheels version instead

Regards

Paulo
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