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  #6131  
Old 02-11-2014
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Re: Pelicano Missing In Action

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
So good news. You have a ELan Dealer and a Salona dealer on the States.
I don't know if you had saw the recent posts about the Salona 33 and the Elan 320?

Here they are:

Interesting Sailboats

Interesting Sailboats

I would say that the Salona is a better regatta boat and the Elan a better solo one. Both has dealers in the US and the Salona 33 is going to be at the Miami boat show. If I was you I would say to both dealers that you are undecided between the two boats and that you are going to race the boat. A motivated dealer can really bring the prices down

Regards

Paulo
So glad to be catching up on this awesome thread. I'm actually in Delray beach for a bit, so I'm definitely hitting up the Miami boat show! Thanks for the heads up!!
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  #6132  
Old 02-12-2014
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Re: The Big RM

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Some more photos and information: what a boat
The interior layout is great including a big Dinghy garage and a frontal big sail locker. the boat will be very fast and light. the preliminary designs show two big water ballast (2T each) and a swing keel but all that can be still changed. As usual on RM, a Marc Lombard Design.
Paulo, I've been trying to pay attention to the location of the cockpit winches in the boats i'm most interested in. You don't see that many with the winches grouped so close to the helm as they are here. I like it from a solo'ing stance.

(anyone) I wonder if other companies are receptive to relocating winches similar to this? Are there any drawbacks to locating them in this way?

thanks,
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  #6133  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
This is a public forum. People can voice their opinions here. That's what makes it fun. Diversity! Everyone has a say. It's the way the internet works. It's not your private sand box. The last time I looked, you don't make the rules.

What makes it fun for me is the diversity. I like to hear a wide range of ideas and opinions. I certainly do not need anyone dictating to me who I should think. I watch sports programs on TV with the sound muted. I can see what is happening. I can figure it out for myself. I sure as hell don't need a TV guy who has never played professional sports in his life explaining to me what happened and just why it happened.

I read all the posts. Sometimes I choose to comment, sometimes I don't. Do you have a problem with that? I like this thread. It is informative. Show me the boats. I can form my own opinions.
I'm just catching up on posts, so I'm a bit behind. But I got to get this off my chest after reading the chines discussion....

I'm trying hard to stay out of this...Bob, I enjoyed your posts....but Bob, you're coming to a board that wouldn't be nearly as good (not even close) because of the knowledge, work and dedication that Paulo has put into it and basically krapping on his front door step. Yeah, it's a public forum, but you're detracting from it's value by "poking the lion" and it's detracting from the culture here. And it's a culture (i'm guessing) that many appreciate just the way it is/was.

Can you just give it a rest, remain constructive and stop antagonizing? I think many would and do appreciate the knowledge you bring as well. You're also a wealth of information and experience, but it's ok to politely disagree, even if someone is wrong (not saying anyone is right or wrong, just conveying it's sometimes best to just leave it alone for the benefit of the innocent bystanders).....because you're kind of in someone else's "house" if you know what I mean. Disagree without being disagreeable.

I appreciate your work especially as I learn more about it. Please take this to heart.
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  #6134  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Holy cow Paulo:
You are really spending way too much time and energy fighting me. I'm very flatterred.

But I have a suggestion that could be useful for you:
If you go to where you can edit your preferences for this forum there is a place where you can put people on "ignore". They have it on Sailing Anarchy too. I don't use it but some do. It works until someone quotes you. Then you can't block the quote. But for you it would serve to have my posts on ignore and you would not have to read them. This would be good for you too Eric. Better than pissing and moaning.

Because, I'm not going anywhere and I have no intention of "behaving". I never have.

Nothing short of pure arrogance. MAJOR BUMMER.

Bob, I had much more respect for you before tonight.
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Last edited by opc11; 02-12-2014 at 01:40 AM.
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  #6135  
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Re: Cruising and racing with wing sails

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Hi opc!

Regarding being better for solo racing, maybe, but it will take more time. It has to do with the huge sail areas used and with the need to reef easily and have a very reliable mechanism. The sails have to be more complex and that means (at least on a development phase that can take many years) less reliable.´

Some experiences have being done on the mini racers, a true laboratory were much of the design, rigging and sail technology have been initially developed before passing to bigger racers, but till know without much sucess in what regards overall performance.

Curiously this time probably the system will be developed first in cruising than in offshore racing since Beneteau is taking it very seriously: They have equipped a Sense 46 with one and have one of the inventors and developers of the system working for them in a very serious way so serious that the boat was already been provided to the press for testing.

I have been following and reading those tests on the French press and the good new is that the system works in what regards not only sailing but superior easiness in handling and reefing is easy. Things go so well that Beneteau says that intends to put on the market the first mass produced boat with a wing sail in two years.

The negative point is that, at least at this stage is not a performance contribution but one regarding easiness that is of main importance in what regards cruising. Yes the sail works well but the sail area is inferior and the overall performance of the Sense 46 with wing sail is worse than the one with conventional sails, not much but clearly worse.

I have no doubts that in the future it will be possible to have a superior performance and use the system also in what regards performance and racing boats...but I think it will take more time.

That's why on that post that you quoted I give a great importance to that testing with two Seascape 18 regarding the One sails solution, this one:

Movie:

That is the first time I see a a performance cruiser with a reefable wing sail beating an identical boat with conventional but top quality sails.

But you are right, this development is of great importance and thanks to the involvement of Beneteau is happening more faster than what I thought and you were right about that

Beneteau is taking a comfortable and smart way regarding the soft wing sail mixing two technologies, the aerorig, tested in many boats including racing ones and the soft wing sail technology.

regarding aerorig, have a look:

This is the system that Beneteau uses:

In fact it makes all the sense, as it is usual on Beneteau:

the big problem of the aerorig is cost. The one developed by Beneteau is should also cost more than a traditional system but much less than a traditional aerorig because the dimensions and charges are much less important, being the sail more efficient for square meter and being almost central regarding the mast. This way the aerorig is much smaller in horizontal length, regarding its arms, much cheaper and with less charges involved.

That is not by accident that they are testing the system on their top and more expensive cruising range, the Sense, where the extra cost of this system will not be so relevant to the cost of the boat than on the other series. Very clever and probably the way to go in what regards cruising boats.

Also very cleaver from Beneteau that have being many times cutting edge regarding cruising sail boats (in what regards design) and having a less good phase some years ago (in what regards innovation) is again at the top, not only with the wing development but with the Sense series.

Regards

Paulo
Yes, I should have been more clear. My interest in this rig is for cruising not racing.

I wonder if it will be more expensive because they think it will be a big selling feature (easier to sail, less rigging to manage, less costs associated w/ maintaining the rigging) or because it's actually more expensive. My guess is the prior. I can't really tell...does this type of rig negate the need for a main traveler?

I believe some of the soft wings can be used in conjunction with foresails. Perhaps when those are accounted for, the overall performance will surpass "conventional" rigs.

I'm ECSTATIC that a large production boat builder has set their sites on this advancement. I think it will be well received in due time.

Heck of a catch (the camera) in that last movie.

Regards,

Last edited by opc11; 02-12-2014 at 01:34 AM.
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  #6136  
Old 02-12-2014
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Re: Sailjet 40

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Now I understand why they designed the hull that way on the new Hunter 40...they just forget to put the big engine in

That seems to have a good performance downwind and a weak one upwind. I will stay with a same sized Bavaria (if I could not have nothing faster). Even much more heavier the Bavaria will be faster sailing (except downwind) and I just don't have the money for the Gasoline. Fact is the I am always looking for the more efficient RPM to have the better performance wasting less.

But that is just me and I sail thousands of miles for season. That super Mac can be the right answer for someone that just sails at weekends, or likes to motor a lot and have the money for it (a tank with 500L says it all).

I fully agree that if you motor, the faster the better (if money is not a problem) and faster than that on a "sailboat" is hard to do. Good looking too:

Sailjet

Thanks for posting, certainly an interesting boat in its way.

Regards

Paulo
weird boat...
one sees that their focus was on motor boating when you look at the sailing hardware alone:
the winches are not even self tailing and the aft sheet is brought back to the winch via the cleat...

there is also no information on the ballast apart from "Keel AISI 316 + 440 - 550 kg lead" and i think they are talking here about the central daggerboard (for what it is).
i cannot believe that this would be the only ballast for a "sailing" boat with 4500 - 5000 kg of displacement...
brochure: http://www.in-time-yachts.fi/images/...eng_bw_web.pdf
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  #6137  
Old 02-12-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

oh and btw even if its older:
here is also one of those breed type of fast-motoring-sailboats:
POWERSAIL NEW ZEALAND - Innovation, Technology and Passion
but while the powersail looks like a real sailboat (2.3 t ballast on 3.3 m draft plus 2 x 1.48 t water ballast) which just happens to have an very powerfull engine on board plus a retractable drive system, the sailjet looks more like a motor boat...
specs of the powersail:
http://www.powersail.co.nz/Powersail...cification.pdf
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  #6138  
Old 02-12-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by opc11 View Post
Nothing short of pure arrogance. MAJOR BUMMER.

Bob, I had much more respect for you before tonight.
Can we please stop the bobperry bashing?! His only infraction was disagreeing with the "Pope", the words "silly" and "stupid". Does it deserve to in return being called arrogant, rude, self-centered, etc. over and over and over? That to me is just, well...rude and silly!
I really enjoy this thread, and the participation of Bob Perry is very welcome. It adds another view, a very competent one, from the only NA here. I sure hope he sticks around and keeps giving his candid opinion, even if opposing views are not acceptable here.
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Last edited by bjung; 02-12-2014 at 11:09 AM.
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  #6139  
Old 02-12-2014
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Winch location

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Originally Posted by opc11 View Post
Paulo, I've been trying to pay attention to the location of the cockpit winches in the boats i'm most interested in. You don't see that many with the winches grouped so close to the helm as they are here. I like it from a solo'ing stance.



(anyone) I wonder if other companies are receptive to relocating winches similar to this? Are there any drawbacks to locating them in this way?

thanks,
OPC, glad you are enjoying the thread again and contributing.

Just two comments before going into the subject. To you and all: regarding not repeating photos on quotes that regards photos that are immediately before or very near the post in question. If the photo is needed for a better comprehension, please post it. You don't need to post them all, just the one that matters, like in this case. It helps the discussion.

Regarding Bob Perry also to you and all, independently of what I think about the subject, this is a thread about boats and I absolutely don't want it and will not continue it if it becomes something nasty, aggressive out of topic with continuous chit chat and wise cracks, like happened to the steel boat thread.

Here we talk about boats not about persons. Regarding Bob Perry I am still waiting for a contributing post that does not try to contradict something that I, a post about a new boat were he actually express an opinion about it or about any technical feature on it and I would not say more. Off course I don't mean one of his boats.

Regarding your question:

I would say that there is a very clear tendency regarding putting winches at the reach of a solo sailor and that are most cruisers (with a little help from the wife). There is also a very clear tendency to reduce the number of winches on mass market cruising boats. That has to do with reducing costs but also because most sailors that sail those boats don't use them. If you look to all main market mass produced boats you will see that they have a winch near the wheels (on each side) but the rigging will not allow another winch to be installed. The only exception is Bavaria that has an option for a second winch on the cockpit but far away from the wheel.

But I guess that you are talking about performance boats and there the problem is different. All that does not have a purchase system for the main and that means pretty much all that are bigger than 40ft, have 4 winches on the cockpit (and normally two over the cabin) but here the ideal position is more complicated because in what regards racing or crewed sailing having all the winches grouped together is not a good idea.

I think that it is a very interesting discussion and I will get back to it after refreshing my memory with what the market has to offer in what regards performance cruisers, with some pictures.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 02-12-2014 at 09:35 AM.
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  #6140  
Old 02-12-2014
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Re: Cruising and racing with wing sails

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Originally Posted by opc11 View Post
Yes, I should have been more clear. My interest in this rig is for cruising not racing.

I wonder if it will be more expensive because they think it will be a big selling feature (easier to sail, less rigging to manage, less costs associated w/ maintaining the rigging) or because it's actually more expensive. My guess is the prior. I can't really tell...does this type of rig negate the need for a main traveler?

I believe some of the soft wings can be used in conjunction with foresails. Perhaps when those are accounted for, the overall performance will surpass "conventional" rigs.

I'm ECSTATIC that a large production boat builder has set their sites on this advancement. I think it will be well received in due time.

Heck of a catch (the camera) in that last movie.

Regards,
Yes, very interesting developments but regarding the rig I think it is very informative the choice of the boat and the series were they are developing it:

They are not developing it on a performance cruiser, like for instance on a First 45 but on the more expensive cruising line. That probably means two things: the priority in the development is not performance neither price.

Anyway if Benetau is developing it it means that they believe it can be produced at prices that can still make their top range boats competitive in what regards selling boats and that is just great.

It also means that they think that the rig offers advantages regarding a traditional rig for cruising...and they are rarely mistaken and that's why they are the biggest sail boat manufacturer. For that and because they know how to associate the best developments on sailboat design to inexpensive cruising boats, making better and affordable boats adapted to what most sailors want. They are leading again, as many times, in what regards mass market cruising boats and not only

Regards

Paulo
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