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  #6161  
Old 02-13-2014
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On design : Winches location for solo sailing.

Getting back to that OPC question and talking about boats with more than 40ft (smaller boats can have a purchase system for the main sheet if the system runs on the cockpit and only need two).

As I have pointed out there are two cases, main mass market cruisers and performance cruisers.

Regarding main market cruisers the tendency is to have a single winch near each wheel and have also there the blocks, so you block one line and use the winch on the other sheet. Whit this system, due to the rigging and position of blocks it is almost impossible to add another winch. Regarding these boats only Bavaria offers the possibility of another pair of winches, but those are not near the wheel. There are two exception that I know off and I will talk about them later.

Regarding performance cruisers only very recently that was taken into consideration (with some very few exceptions) and the normal set up was to have 4 winches on the cockpit but well separated and none near the wheel. The reason has to do with giving more space for maneuver when the boat is used for crewed racing. The First 40, the Salona 410, The Comet 41s, the Xp 38, the Dehler 41 don't have any winch at easy reach from the wheels man.

Then on the some very recent performance cruisers they started taking more into consideration the needs of a solo sailor regarding the balance between what is optimal in solo sailing and racing and started to have one winch more near the wheel (on each side) and the other far way.

That's the case for instance of the new Elan 400:





Or the RM 1260



Let me point out that if on the RM you use a two tillers system (I think they have it on option) the problem is sorted out because with the extension you can reach the other winch. That's how it works on the Pogo 12.50:



The first performance cruiser to take that balance much more for solo sailing than for crewed racing was Dufour that on their performance line developed a system that is now used by other brands. Both the two winches from each side are easily accessible to a solo sailor:

The 40e:





The 45e:





Some other recent performance boats adopted the system, that's the case with the Azuree 46:



And I bet the next one, the new Azuree 40 will have that system too.

You can also make it easy for the solo sailor with only 3 winches near the wheel providing one is central and direct or German sheeting is used. That's what the Maxi 1200 does (even if I don't understand a performance boat without traveler). The system can also work with traveler but has to be rigged in another way.



Regarding the main market cruisers that use 3 or 4 winches easily accessible to the solo sailor, one is a very expensive boat, this Year's European luxury boat, the Contest 42CS. They propose multiple options regarding rigging including adapted to solo sailors:









and the other one is not a particularly expensive one for its size and it is the Dufour, the new 500 from the main line (Grand Large):







The problem was solved in an elegant way and a functional one. I looked to see if the 410 had space for the same...but it has not. With the winch there there is no space to sit at the wheel.



On the even newer Dufour 560 they have also the same system as on the 500 but even with more space and probably working even better:

Faster, EricKLYC, opc11 and 1 others like this.
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Last edited by PCP; 02-13-2014 at 12:21 PM.
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  #6162  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Despite my more focused cruising interest (odd since i'm generally a pretty competitive guy who once upon a time loved racing lasers, 420's, 470's as a kid) a traveler would still be important to me but it's placement would have to allow for a sheltered cockpit. That rules out having it on the cockpit floor.

The central main winch is also easy to rule out for me. None of the other options looked as appealing as the Dufour 500's setup from a solo cruising standpoint. Plus, despite them being clustered around the helm, I wouldn't be afraid to enter some races (with a crew) in a cruising class (with low expectations...at least at first ;-) ). Nothing to fear when you don't fully know what you're doing! :-)

Thanks for assembling a great display of boats/cockpits. Very interesting as I learn more about the nuances of larger boats.

Last edited by opc11; 02-13-2014 at 02:06 PM.
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  #6163  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Wheels, Travelers and Winches

Having steered some dual wheel 40' boats, I can say sitting down and reaching for the main sheet winch and traveler is rather uncomfortable due main sheet winch is usually set up for main sheet trimmer just forward of the wheel along with traveler controls. I would think most would find steering while standing and having the ability to walk back and forth between wheels and forward into cockpit (while on autohelm) very convenient.

Reminds me of Dennis Conner sitting on the rail with a big destroyer wheel

Hard to tell what the two winches are for sitting on end of bench seats.

For a shorthanded or solo sailor, a central mounted mainsheet winch and traveler located in the cockpit is way to go.
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  #6164  
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Wheels, Travelers and Winches

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward3 View Post
Wheels, Travelers and Winches

Having steered some dual wheel 40' boats, I can say sitting down and reaching for the main sheet winch and traveler is rather uncomfortable due main sheet winch is usually set up for main sheet trimmer just forward of the wheel along with traveler controls. I would think most would find steering while standing and having the ability to walk back and forth between wheels and forward into cockpit (while on autohelm) very convenient.

Reminds me of Dennis Conner sitting on the rail with a big destroyer wheel

Hard to tell what the two winches are for sitting on end of bench seats.

For a shorthanded or solo sailor, a central mounted mainsheet winch and traveler located in the cockpit is way to go.
Regarding what is the better setup for a solo sailor regarding the two possible wheel setup (Two or single) regarding reaching the winches I have not any doubt, I mean if the boat is sportive and the wheel is really big, as it is on mine, it is much easier with two wheels specially if the weather is bad and the boat is strongly heeled. I have many hours of sailing with the two types of set up, 3 weeks sailing every day on two different boats with two wheel setup (and smaller times with other boats) and a huge time on mine and I sail always practically solo with an occasional small help from my wife. Off course this is a personal view. A single big wheel has advantages in what regards sensibility and feeling and a two wheel set up has to be pretty good and expensive not to give a numb sensation at the wheel. One of those boats that I mentioned, a Dufour 425GL had an effective steering but not a lively one. The other one, a Salona 41 was much better but even so not as good as the big wheel of my boat in what regards being informative.

Basically the main problem is going out from behind that big wheel with the boat heeled and get back in. Not always an easy task specially when the weather is bad and you are wearing an harness or the boat is strongly heeled. On a single wheel setup you have to unclip and clip again on the other side of the wheel. With two wheels even with an harness you can run a jack-line along the cockpit that allows safe movement and serves also for the steering post.

Regarding the traveler I agree with you.

Regarding the winches I believe that we both agree that one should be mounted on each side near the wheel and easily run from the steering post. Regarding the other winch I surely would prefer the system that it is mounted on Dufour, with winches side by side, both at easy reach, than to have to go forward leaving the wheel to reach a winch way forward.

Regarding a single winch to be the better solution than the two parallel ones I would have to try both solutions but I have some doubts about how that can be made without making difficult the use of the traveler. Without a traveler, like it is used on the Contest and on the Maxi 1200 it seems a great solution to me. Don't take me wrong, I am not saying that it would not work, just saying that it would depend where the traveler is and how the two things work together. it also occupies more space on the cockpit and dificult the movement forward.

Never tried the system used on the last models of the Dufour performance (two winches side by side) but I have already sailed in recent sailboats with the aft winch near the wheel and I can only say that I wished my boat had one like that

I believe the system with the two winches in parallel if well rigged and done work well for a solo sailor. If it was not the case they would have already changed the system on Dufour (it has already some years now) and other boats and designers would not have started to use it also.

Does anybody have sailed a Dufour with those two parallel winches?

Regards

Paulo
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  #6165  
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Mylius 18e35

I love this boat and I love the spirit of the guys behind it:

"Mylius was born in 2003 from a dream and the love for sailing of three men. Mario Sassi, Alberto Simeone and Mauro Montefusco always lived sailing as their big passion, since childhood; then, after various professional experiences in other sectors, they launched a completely new company, able to reflect their way of living and loving the sea.

In 2004 "Wednesday", the first Mylius 11E25, was launched, a boat with many great innovations, including the dinette in the bow and the large sun-bathing area aft, then copied by many different shipyards.

In 2007 the first Mylius 14E55 was launched, a fast cruiser-racer without sacrifices in terms of comfort, but winning in high-level regattas – as the two Italian ORC International Championships won by “Fra Diavolo” in 2009 and 2010. ...

Like all Mylius Yachts, the 18E35 is a fast cruiser-racer, a true “Grandturing” able to combines at best comfort, performance, quality and design. The Mylius 18E35 is a very comfortable, easy and safe yacht, with wide sunbathing areas, cosy cockpit and interiors and very complete equipments; is a very fast and balanced yacht, under any sailing conditions and with any crew, and very competitive when racing; above all, is an elegant and sophisticated yacht, completely built and rigged in carbon, with great attention to even the smallest details, to last and maintain value over time.

Furthermore, being built on request, every Mylius can be personalized based on the specific needs and desires of every owner and become a really unique yachts, able to express his own way of sailing."


and they also say about it:

"The sleek lines and the careful distribution of the hull’s volumes make it a thoroughbred with exciting performance, but also able to provide its guests with all the necessary amenities when cruising.

The boat therefore features a medium-light displacement, high waterline length and low water surface. The high sail-to-displacement ratio is balanced by the high righting moment, achieved via both the deep keel and a high shape stability, consequence of the generous beam."


I love the "medium-light displacement" part: this 60ft weights 15900kg and 6200kg are ballast.

http://www.mylius.it/pdf/Brochure%20...%202013_01.pdf

I had already posted a short video but did not notice that there was a big one and this boat deserves all the minutes of it. I could fall in love with something like this if I had the money for it.

It is designed and engineered by Tommy Testa Dura, I mean Alberto Simeone.

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Luffe 3.6



For the first time we have a decent movie on the 3.6 one that shows very well the boat. It is from the Yacht.de test on the boat. Robelz if you happen to read this one do you mind to share with us the general impressions? Yacht.de is one of the magazines whose tests are generally trustworthy.

It seems they like the boat since they comment:

"It took to Luffe 34 years to find a successor for the 37. The first contact with the new 3.6 convinced us in what regards sailing ability and interior. "

One of the things that was very well sorted out in this boat was the need of having a standing height. All modern 36ft have standing height but the 37, a very beautiful old narrow boat was far from that and the traditional low cabins that are a Luffe trademark would make that very difficult without increasing much freeboad. The compromise between these factors was very good and the boat looks elegant like a Luffe and the extra freeboard is barely noticeable.



The movie:

http://tv.yacht.de/video/Luffe-36-%2...c3e17316c13801

Robelz, I am particularly curious about what they say regarding sailing ability and this boat not being equipped with a traveler.
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

What is a "standing weight"? That is a new term for me.
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

I will watch the movie on Sunday...
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Babouchka and the craziest sail voyage ever.

Yes they are French and radical sailors. They had already made the Northwest passage in a sailing boat without engine and as that seemed too easy for them they are trying something more difficult: To sail the Arctic sea passing by the North Pole, yes off course it is covered with ice but they seemed not to care. They have tried two times and did not succeed, being caught in Arctic storms.

Will they give up? I don't think so, these are the king of guys that or they accomplish what they dream or will die trying. Stubborn but also incredibly brave guys that drive away polar bears with flares. I missed is last adventure because I was cruising (I followed here his Northwest passage without an engine) and I will continue to follow their mad attempts. I would not be surprised if they succeed. Sebastien Roubinet and Vincent Berthet, Chapeau to them





Sébastien Roubinet - Accueil

Admiral Makarov Meets Babouchka in the Central Arctic
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