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  #6241  
Old 02-22-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

"Yes of course everybody knows that racing has a lot of influence in what regards hull shape and ratings "

Not sure that "everyone knows" Paulo but I get your snide point.
My comments were never intended as an "argument" but simply my way of filling in some gaps in your history of the early boats.

No discussion of hull shapes from that era is complete without mention of rule influences. And your comment that the 31's transom would have looked "huge" is not correct. If anything, at that time we watched in wonder as transoms just got smaller and smaller.
This has zero to do with what anyone does with these boats today. But it has a lot to do with where the original design ideas came from so any accurate history of the models is incomplete without mention of the prevailing rule. The shapes make no sense without it. That's just reality.
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Last edited by bobperry; 02-22-2014 at 11:31 AM.
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  #6242  
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Half ton class winners as boring boats to sail and their designers:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
... Arpege 30 .. I had the fun of doing some long distance races on an Arpege 30 many years ago. It was a slow boat in light air and had a small rig to allow it, I think, to rate half ton class. Good little boat and popular but boring to sail....
Your notion of popular and boring is curious

The Arpege won the 1967 half ton cup and made 6th in 1970, 8th in 1971 and won many top races. The boat contrary to most of the other top half toners was not only a good racer but also a great cruising boat with lot's of interior space for the time. There are very few sailboats that have sold 1500 boats of the same model and that means that this was a truly great dual boat.

Calling boring to sail to a boat that had won on his time the most prestigious racing world trophy for that size of boats, it is an interesting opinion. Maybe you find your Baba 30, designed 10 years later and still with a full keel a more amusing boat to sail. Everybody has is tastes in what regards sailboats. No wrong or right here.

BABA 30 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

The half ton cup was to sailboat development, between the late 60's and the 80's, what the mini racer class is today for revealing the talent of young designers that later become some of the better worldwide NA, many of them still major names today in what regards boat design and innovation. All cutting edge designers then and amazingly, some still remain cutting edge designers today contributing actively for the development of sailboat design.

Just have a look at the names that were involved on the development of those boats:

Michel Dufour, Philippe Harlé, Peter Norlin, André Mauric, Finot, Sparkman and Stephens, Van De Statd, Philippe Briand, Michel Joubert, Doug Peterson, Ron Holland, Bruce Farr, Joubert-Nivelt, Jean Berret, Daniel Andrieu, Tony Castro, Ed Dubois, Jacques Fauroux, Rob Humphreys, Georg Nissen, Stephen Jones, Håkan Södergren, Judel & Vrolijk, Hugh Welbourne, Vallicelli, German Frers, Ceccarelli.

Some other opinions and facts about the Dufour Arpege:

The Arpege was, in my view, anyway, the first really modern GRP production yacht. I saw one for the first time at the 1969 Boat Show and was amazed at the genius of the design. It provided very spacious, light and well-ventilated accommodation, a huge navigatorium, six proper berths with none crammed into the forepeak, a comfortable cockpit and a nice clean deck without angles or sharp corners.....

The Arpege was a noted performer, too. I am sure it won the Round The Island Race at its first attempt - John Oakley at the helm, I think, and went on to win offshore and inshore races all over the world. In any kind of weather the boat was so well balanced it steered with a light touch on a tiller so short and fragile-looking that it seemed to belong to another much smaller boat.

Many Arpeges have made long ocean voyages, too.


1001 Boats: Dufour Arpege

Michel Dufour's innovative design was little short of revolutionary back in 1966, with its intricate interior mouldings and brilliant detailing. Today, though, she appears more idiosyncratic than brilliant, although those who have sailed her say she is perfect for fast offshore cruising. She was a huge success (over 400 a year being built at one time) and set Dufour on the road to becoming one of Europe's biggest boatbuilders...

Her interior pioneered the use of internal mouldings, with slots to locate bulkheads and foam sandwich for the decks. Beamy and shallow bodied with a high-aspect rig, she performed well on the racing circuit....

Although not to everyone's taste, the interior works well, particularly offshore. There were several variants, the most significant of which were an extended counter and a deeper fin. Both are desirable ...

Read more at Dufour Arpège boat review | Yacht reviews | Yachting Monthly

In 1965, Michel Dufour introduced the leading-edge Arpege, a 30-foot racer/cruiser that combined cruising elements with a winning race pedigree and would serve as the basis of what is today Dufour Yachts.

BLUE WATER SAILING

The Arpege was designed by Michael Dufour in 1966 as the first of his volume production boats. It quickly gained a reputation in Half Ton Cup racing. However, it was also a spacious boat, with a very broad beam for its time, as a review in 1966 commented "it is astonishing how much space below the increase in beam makes."

Arpege
...
Down below
Michel Dufour was quite innovative when it came to interior layouts, and the Arpege was no exception. Instead of squeezing in a double berth forward, the small forepeak was dedicated to sail and other storage. A private athwartships head is aft of the forepeak. The saloon features opposite facing settees with pilot berths above. I like this arrangement. When coupled with a lee cloth, pilot berths are excellent sea berths located out of the traffic flow. I always commandeer a pilot berth if it’s available.

The Arpege has an impressive galley for a 1960s-era 30-footer. Opposite the galley is the nav station, again an unusual feature in an older small boat, and the nav desk is large enough to work comfortably. The galley and the nav station can be closed off from the saloon for added privacy. There are quarter berths port and starboard, and if you can resist filling them up with gear, they make great sea berths. There is adequate storage below the settees and, of course, excellent storage in the forepeak. The table is designed to be stowed away and can also be used as a cockpit table. The finish work is really quite nice, trimmed in mahogany. There’s even a built-in wine rack....

Under way
Two of the owners that I managed to communicate with in France explained that they sailed all over the Bay of Biscay every year and that the Arpege is really at its best in heavy weather. The chap I spoke with in Oakland, who has sailed his Arpege extensively offshore, confirmed this notion.

Mike Addelman owns a 1973 model that he sails on Biscayne Bay in Miami. When asked about the boat’s performance parameters, Addelman told me via e-mail that he is surprised how well the Arpege points and not surprised that it tracks well too. While it doesn’t accelerate like a modern boat, it doesn’t slow down easily either. He noted that several years ago, he finished third in class in the Columbus Day Regatta despite a weekend of very light wind. ...


Dufour Arpege 30





It seems to me and to many like a very innovative boat for his time, a great cruiser that could also win races and top ones too. A great design that was also a great success among sailors with about 1500 boats made. Describing it as a a "was a slow boat in light air ..but boring to sail" seems not go with the overall picture.

Some photos of the hull:

Dufour Arpege archive data - Yachtsnet Ltd. online UK yacht brokers - yacht brokerage and boat sales

Just look at this keel on an almost 50 year old mass produced main market cruiser:





Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 02-23-2014 at 08:46 AM.
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  #6243  
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Extreme sailing series, Singapore: Another big crash



I don't know who has the idea of putting those boats racing in such a tight place but it was not a bright idea

These boast have huge accelerations and are very large. During those accelerations it is not easy to control the boat and the rudder alone is not enough to change direction. Treating the needs in space for these boats to race as if they were monohulls is plain crazy and the results are there. Besides it is dangerous. I don't believe the teams are very pleased with the race management.
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Anybody hurt in that, Paulo?? Amazing if not..
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Extreme series accident:

Yes they were very lucky, just a Grupama sailor with minor injuries. All the other where blindingly fast jumping on the water:

" Approaching the finish line, Groupama gybed onto starboard tack to respect the priority she was obliged to give her rival. Unfortunately Aberdeen went out of control in a violent gust and slammed into Groupama, which was powerless to avoid it.

Aberdeen's windward float, hydroplaning wildly, broke Groupama's mast after knocking Tanguy Cariou over, slightly damaging his head in the process, whilst three of the other four crew jumped into the water to avoid injury.

Questioned about the incident on his return to shore, the skipper of Groupama explained
: "'I had absolutely no idea it was coming, other than a shadow. We'd just finished our gybe and were powering along towards the finish line when it happened.

Nick Moloney regretted the incident, but wasn't able to bear away (alter his course) due to his gennaker, which was flapping in a strong gust of wind. His windward float was very high and it hit our mast, which subsequently snapped in half with the impact.

Together with Sophie (de Turckheim) and Thierry (Fouchier), we jumped overboard to avoid being injured. Tanguy Cariou, who was in the middle of the boat, on the net, took a body blow from the incoming boat and got knocked on the head. He went to hospital but fortunately it wasn't anything serious. As for Devan Le Bihan, he was unhurt.' "


It now remains to be seen if Tanguy Cariou will be able to take up his post as tactician: 'I'm back from hospital. They gave me a few stitches above the eye, but my back's killing me, my right shoulder is a mess and I really took quite a knock. At the present time, I find it hard to envisage returning to my post aboard the boat tomorrow. Franck and I will discuss the matter,' he explained.

Sail-World.com : Extreme Sailing Series - Groupama takes a hit, but won't back down


It is a pity. They had finished the last race (today) in 2nd and were going up on the classification. Cammas says he can repair the boat for tomorrow but I don't know if that injured guy is in conditions to race tomorrow.

and it seems that it is not only me that thinks that racing should not be done there, in such a tight space:

A spectacular pile-up between two boats at the Extreme Sailing Series in Singapore has prompted crews to seek reassurances from organisers that conditions in Marina Bay are safe for racing.

“We could feel the conditions getting fruity and we were massively relieved to have got through the finish line,” said Leigh McMillan, skipper of The Wave, Muscat, the race winners.
“The wind was coming in so fast and there was this bottleneck with nowhere for the boats to go. When the gusts hit, you lose control and there is nothing you can do. We were extremely concerned and were waiting to hear that everyone was safe.
“Ideally we would be in slightly less risky conditions,” ..
“There have been plenty of close moments when things could have gone horribly wrong and there has to be some consideration for the safety of the crews and make sure the organisers are not forcing us into dangerous situations.”


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/oth...questions.html
...

This was Yesterday, another crash:

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  #6246  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Nice history lesson Paulo. I knew most of it.

The difference is that I have actually sailed the Arpege, many miles while, you have only read about it.

Yes, at one time it was a "rocket" and a race winner. It was a great little boat and very succesful. (Haven't I said this already?) I did mention it rated at Half Ton class level. But by 1974 it was no longer a rocket. It was out designed. That happens. It had a very short rig and in light air it was a very BORING boat to sail. You can change "boring" to "slow" if that suits you better. In the prestigious Chicago-Macinac race we eventually dropped out at Frankfurt due to consustant very light air. We spent a day and a half getting that far. We were very good sailors, four of us were paid to sail that race, so I know it was not us. But in the light stuff that boat was hard to make go. It needed a bigger rig. Compared to Peter Norlin's SCAMPI of the same era, another boat with a short rig, the Arpege was not competitive by 1974. Times change. Expectations of performance change.
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Last edited by bobperry; 02-22-2014 at 05:45 PM.
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Extreme series collision:

From another angle:



I have tried to find the movies of today races but all I kind find is movies with the collision
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Talking Pretty incredible racing video

It has already some months but I never has saw it. If I had I would remember and I bet the guys on that boat will never forget this stunt I had a good laugh LOL

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Re: Interesting Sailboats

The internet is so much fun!

Where are they sailing in that cat collision video? I'd like to see a vid shot from a helicpoter.
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
.. I did mention it rated at Half Ton class level. But by 1974 it was no longer a rocket. It was out designed. That happens. It had a very short rig and in light air it was a very BORING boat to sail. You can change "boring" to "slow" if that suits you better. ... Compared to Peter Norlin's SCAMPI of the same era, another boat with a short rig, the Arpege was not competitive by 1974. Times change. Expectations of performance change.
I don't know if you noticed but that was the point of that post: Design evolution, changes in hulls and increased performance. Obviously when I was saying that the Arpege was a great design, or fast, I was referring to the time he was designed, back in 1966, not now, not 8 years later. In 1974 the Arpege had already been substituted in the Dufour line by the 31, a faster boat. It was obviously outdated back in 1974 and that's why it had been already substituted by the 31, a very different hull.

The point of that post was tho show the evolution of the hulls and the increase in performance associated with it since 1966 to our days: The new beamy Dufour 31GL has a much better overall performance than the almost 50 year old narrow designed (but beamy for the time) Arpege.

The Arpege was regarding its time a much faster boat than the Dufour 31GL is today. The Arpege was a top race winner, while the 31GL, while much faster on overall performance, today has not the potential to win any major race neither would be considered a performance cruiser, like it was the Arpege back in 1966.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 02-23-2014 at 09:08 AM.
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