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  #6251  
Old 02-23-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Paulo:
Your initial post on the Arpege makes no mention at all of it's racing record or the fact that it was a RORC design. This is an important part of the history of that boat. It was very successful under that rule and the design is heavily influenced by that rule. I just filled in the gaps in your "history". In that initial post you also mention that the stern would have looked "huge" your word. That is incorrect. In fact just the opposite. It was a time when sterns were getting very smaller and smaller. I was simply trying to add some clarification and accuracy.

But my last post was purely to address you confusion and questioning my use of the word "boring". You did ask that question. I explained that by 1974 the Arpege was very dated in terms of performance. In short, it was slow and not a lot of fun to race. That's all there is to it.

I'm happy to add clarification and accuracy and time I can. I enjoy doing it.
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  #6252  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Paulo:
Your initial post on the Arpege makes no mention at all of it's racing record or the fact that it was a RORC design. This is an important part of the history of that boat. It was very successful under that rule and the design is heavily influenced by that rule. ...
Bob, contrary to what you think the Arpege was not a racing boat, it was not designed with with racing in mind but with cruising and that's why it had a hull less influenced by IOR than the Norlin, a 1970 design.

1966 Arpege:



1970 Scampi:





It was a mass production main market cruiser that sold 1500 boats in some few years. No race boat sells like that. If you think it was slow for the time try to compare it with the cruising boats that in 1966 sold more boats in the US. Compare it with what is comparable. I am quite sure that you will have to agree that was a very fast cruising boat for the time and anything but boring under a cruising perspective.

The fact that they have found out that cruising boat was fast and could win on the Half ton cup has an incident not something that was intended from the beginning.

Off course, all cruising boats (or almost all) have hulls influenced by racing boats since these represent the state of the art in what regards performance and they are also influence by the rating rules that are there not to influence design but to rate with fairness sailing boats. At some time they all create distortions but then they are changed to allow faster and more modern boats to be competitive. In the meantime they have influence on how the sailboats are designed...well not anymore in what regards main cruising boats since they have followed open boats that are not designed to a rating.

I have been discussing at length that on this thread regarding ORC and IRC rating and the way they are evolving and everybody that follows this thread knows that and the influence they have on boats designed to compete specifically under those rules.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 02-23-2014 at 10:35 AM.
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  #6253  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Not sure if this is "intreresting" enough for this thread but I thought you might like to see how the design process works at this level. During a recent trip to the yard a change was made in the galley that impacted our forward companionway ladder. This boat is 63' and has two companionways. So we have redesigned the forward companionway hatch into "scuttle" type profile hatch and we are now playing with curved companionway ladder. The scuttle type hatch was popular on boats of the 1930's thru the 1950's and used by S&S on several of their boats. It fits with our classic American look on this design.



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  #6254  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

The fact that the Arpege won the Half Ton Cup proves, to at least it's crew, that it was a racing boat. if it were not a race boat I sincerely doubt it would have entered the half Ton Cup series.


If you look at the competition for the 1966 Half Ton Cup you will see that the Arpege with it's fin keel and separate rudder was almost "radical" for it's time. In those days many boats still had full keels.

The Arpege had more beam than a Scampi because it was designed to a totally different rule at a totally different time. The boats have almost nothing in common. The Scampi is an IOR design, Arpege RORC. Two different rules that produced different boats. The Scampi even has a chine!

"and everybody that follows this thread knows that and the influence they have on boats designed to compete specifically under those rules."

Well, you'll just have to excuse me Paulo. I don't believe that "everybody" knows anything. I believe some people do and some don't. And when I see misinformation posted or a history posted with gaping holes in it I will continue to speak up and do my best to correct the situation. I feel very confident doing this.
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  #6255  
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Philippe Briand last boats: Inoui and Bristolian II

I don't think there are many chances of the next First 50 to be designed by Philippe Briand but since he had designed the last one (as well as the 45) I went to his site to see if there was any news about it. There was not but since I was there I took the occasion to have a look on his last sailingboats.

Philippe Briand was one of those NA that participated actively (and with success) on the Half Ton cup battle that was not only a battle on the water but also a design battle. His tastes for performance and how to get it come from there and was completed by a refined aesthetically view on design. His boats are always very elegant.

It was with some surprise that I found out that his last one (2013) was not as elegant as the last ones. Don't make mistakes, it is a beautiful boat but there are some things that don't add, like the color of the boat and the superstructure, the slightly outdated look (for Briand) and then I saw what the owner wanted:

"This design is based on the requirements of her owner, who wanted a high performance yet ‘timeless’ sailboat."

Well, timeless for many means just not looking too contemporary and in what regards colors...well it seems to me the owner had a big say on that. Just look at the interior. I bet the designer made the possible to accommodate the "tastes" of the owner giving them quality...but even so...

The 108ft Inoui



It goes "well" with the outside green.





Anyway this is a very interesting boat with a lifting keel and an all carbon one. More and more top performance cruising boats, even production ones are opting for Carbon as material, when costs are not to be the main concern.

But in what regards aesthetics just compare it with the 5 year's older Bristolian:















Too contemporary for the Inoui owner? It seems so. Bristolian is also an all carbon boat with a lifting keel, just about 3m bigger than Inoui.

What a yacht

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  #6256  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
The fact that the Arpege won the Half Ton Cup proves, to at least it's crew, that it was a racing boat. if it were not a race boat I sincerely doubt it would have entered the half Ton Cup series.


If you look at the competition for the 1966 Half Ton Cup you will see that the Arpege with it's fin keel and separate rudder was almost "radical" for it's time. In those days many boats still had full keels.

... And when I see misinformation posted or a history posted with gaping holes in it I will continue to speak up and do my best to correct the situation. I feel very confident doing this.
Sure Bob. Yes then like now there was cutting edge designers that had already leaved the full keel behind and others that decades after that still designed cruising boats with full keels.



Regarding the Arpege you don't know what you are talking about (regarding being a race boat). Translated from the French:

"L'Arpege released in 1967, quickly became the emblem of the Dufour brand, allowing it to become the first French and European manufacturer. ..

L'Arpege is a coastal cruising sloop designed by the naval architect Michel Dufour (founder of the company Dufour Yachts in 1964), and built between 1967 and 1976 in the yards in the same name as its creator, in La Rochelle (Charente -Maritime)."


Arpège, un sloop dessiné et construit en 1967, par Michel Dufour. | All Boats Avenue

L'Arpege is a coastal cruising sailboat designed by the naval architect Michel Dufour and built between 1967 and 1976 at sites Dufour Yachts in La Rochelle (Charente-Maritime, France).

Wikipedia

The Arpege was designed by Michael Dufour in 1966 as the first of his volume production boats. It quickly gained a reputation in Half Ton Cup racing. However, it was also a spacious boat, with a very broad beam for its time, as a review in 1966 commented "it is astonishing how much space below the increase in beam makes."

Arpege

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post

... And when I see misinformation posted or a history posted with gaping holes in it I will continue to speak up and do my best to correct the situation. I feel very confident doing this.

I have no doubt you are a very confident man.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 02-23-2014 at 12:30 PM.
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  #6257  
Old 02-23-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

No need to be snide again Paulo.

By definition if the Arpege won the Half Ton Cup it was a race boat. and an effective one.
"It quickly gained a reputation in Half Ton Cup racing."

But be clear that what we would define as a "race boat" today is not the same way it would have been defined in 1966. Those were the days of dual purpose boats that were intended to be raced one day and family cruised the next. You can see the exat same philosophy at work in the CCA boats of the same era. They were very cruisy boats designed to rate well under the CCA rule. They were raced and cruised. The line of distiction was not so defined as it is today.

I have no need to belabor this subject any further.

I know you don't like to be challenged on your "facts" but this is a public forum so I will continue to challenge when I think it is warranted.
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Philippe Briand last boats: P2 and Vertigo

The 38m P2 is also a 2008 design and even if I like it less than Bristolian it is a very beautiful yacht with a great interior. It was designed for Perini and it is an aluminium one:















The Yacht P2 competes at the St.Barts Bucket (filmed from the air and onboard). from Onne van der Wal on Vimeo.



But the most incredible one is the Vertigo 220, yes 220ft An aluminum boat.

It is very difficult to design this big yachts that always look like a cross between a motorboat and a sailing boat due to the interior space requirements (charter). Not this one. Its design for this type of yacht is absolutely brilliant:

























I hope he finds time to continue to design for us, poor guys that have to content with smaller sailboats. Even those he designs admirably well. The last design in what regards production boats is the very recent and beautiful CNB 76 (I have posted about it). Before that the CNB 60, the jeanneau 57DS and 53Ds, the Sun Odyssey 509, 469, and the 409, a truly great design. Also great designs the First 45 and First 50, two boats that join performance with a great cruising interior.

I like particularly the First 45 that even if near its replacement time is still one of the most beautiful boats around, inside and outside. Kind of classic on its lines.



Interior 360:

Beneteau-first-45
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
..
By definition if the Arpege won the Half Ton Cup it was a race boat. and an effective one.
"It quickly gained a reputation in Half Ton Cup racing."

But be clear that what we would define as a "race boat" today is not the same way it would have been defined in 1966. Those were the days of dual purpose boats that were intended to be raced one day and family cruised the next. ...
I have no need to belabor this subject any further.

I know you don't like to be challenged on your "facts" but this is a public forum so I will continue to challenge when I think it is warranted.
Bob, it was a mass production, big interior volume, coastal cruiser. The boat sold 1500 boats in some years and on a single year sold 400 boats. You should know that high profile performance cruisers, boats pointed more for racing than for cruising, don't sell this way. Didn't sell like that 50 years ago and don't sell in great numbers now.

The Arpege was for years the cruiser more sold in Europe. The boats that sold more are the ones that are designed to the main market, boats pointed to the average cruiser.

You probably will know what was the 30ft cruiser more sold on the US at that time. There you have a boat to compare with the Arpege in what regards sail performances (I bet it was a full keel boat and a lot slower, or more boring as you say).

The fact that a main market cruiser could have won the half ton cup and many other races only show how advanced that cruising design was for its time...and that's what i have been telling from the beginning. It also show that 50 years ago European cruisers liked already fast modern cruising boats.

Regard

Paulo
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Talking First 45 racing and....with some problems: What a mess

Since we are talking about the First 45 that is not only a very nice cruiser but a good IRC racer, not a top one but one able to finish in podium places like on the 2013 Sydney Hobart

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Last edited by PCP; 02-23-2014 at 01:53 PM.
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