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  #6251  
Old 02-22-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by aeventyr60 View Post
An intrepid voyager on a small steel boat from Australia.
The hull seems nice (what I can see) but I don't understand the steel mast neither the use of steel on the hull and much less on the cabin for such a small sailboat. The rig seems also unusual (junk rig?) and smallish for the weight of the boat. It seems to have a small extension at the bow for a downwind sail but on a boat with that weight I would have expected a big spy or reacher pole, like on some traditional heavy traditional boats.

Regards

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Last edited by PCP; 02-22-2014 at 07:26 AM.
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Dufour 31 and Dufour 310 GL

I have been waiting to find pictures of the new 310GL, particularly from the hull, that is a very nice one, but I can't find anything. That's odd because the boat was presented at the Paris boat show and then in Dusseldorf where I visited the boat (and where impressed). It is also selling very well but when I search for Images of Dufour 310 I am overwhelmed with images of the older model and there is a reason for it. The Dufour 31 was one of the greatest designs ever and one that contributed very strongly for the growing of Dufour as a brand.

So, contrary to what is usual I will indulge a bit on boat history and I will look at an old hull before looking to the new one.

The design of the 31 is from Michel Dufour and appeared following the one of a very modern boat for its time, the Arpege (30ft -1966) from the same designer (1500 boats built in 10 years):

ARPEGE 30 (DUFOUR) sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

The 31 (400 boats built in 6 years):

DUFOUR 31 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com







This is a 41 year's old design. I bet that at the time it would have looked incredibly modern and I would say fragile to many since the boat only weighted 4355kg and from those 1677kg were ballast in a boat that had an unusually big draft (at the time) for a 31ft boat: 1.73m

The hull should also have appeared very beamy to many and the transom huge (compared with the Arpege - 1st image), as huge and beamy the new 31 GL will look now to many now







To be fair to Michel Dufour there is a much bigger time lapse between the Dufour 31 and the 31Gl than between the 30ft Arpege and the 310GL ( 7 years compared with 40) so in fact the evolution from the Arpege to the 31 is bigger if we take time into consideration.

The beam of the three modes were: 3.02m, 3.20m, 3.31m

The weight: 3493kg, 4355kg, 9940kg

Ballast: 1383kg, 1677kg, 1300kg

The deep draft: 1.40m, 1,73m, 1.90m

The LWL: 6.71m, 7.01m, 8.70m

The sail Area upwind: 35.52m2, 36.74m2, 50.3m2

The much smaller ballast of the new boat shows the importance of draft and of a modern bulbed or torpedo keel in what regards diminishing the weight of needed ballast.

The huge difference in LWL shows the hull evolution on this determinant factor for boat performance and the differences in sail area are proportional to the overall stability and RM of the boats and shows the importance of today's hulls in what regards the contribution of form stability to the overall stability. The increase in weight is somewhat proportional to the increase to the boat hull area and boat volume.

I like very much the Felci designed hull of the 310Gl but only time will tell if it will be as successful as the other two. I doubt since today boat evolution is much faster and the boats become obsolete much faster.

The new 310GL has also a great interior, an amazing one in comfort, interior space and functionality for a 31ft boat:








Don't miss the virtual visit to the interior:

310 - Grand Large - DUFOUR Yachts



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Last edited by PCP; 02-27-2014 at 10:42 AM.
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

No, the transom on the 31 would not have looked huge at all. This boat was designed to be measured under the IOR as was typical of the time. Most mom and pop boats of that day were designed with many IOR influences even if not intended as race boats. This Dufour is a good exmple. Part of that IOR influence was a very small transom in order to control the AGS and AIGS, girth stations aft. These small transoms are a dead give away that this boat is heavily IOR infuenced. You can see the same influences on the Arpege 30 designed in the tail end of the RORC rule. RORC also encouraged a narrow transom as it too used girth stations to detemnine "L". The IOR adopted the RORC girth station method of determining "L". That lead to a whole era of boats with pinched ends. I had the fun of doing some long distance races on an Arpege 30 many years ago. It was a slow boat in light air and had a small rig to allow it, I think, to rate half ton class. Good little boat and popular but boring to sail.

You could propbably attribute the reverse curve , concavity, in the bow profile also to the rule. This concavity would have squeezed the FGS and FIGS, flor ward girth stations, together to help reduuce "L" or measured lenghth.


I think it is best to discuss hull shapes from the 70's with some idea of how they were influenced by the IOR. Just like today, even if the boat is not intended as a racer everyone wants to think their boat looks like a racer.
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Last edited by bobperry; 02-22-2014 at 10:21 AM.
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Main market production hulls are not influenced by rating rules anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
No, the transom on the 31 would not have looked huge at all. This boat was designed to be measured under the IOR as was typical of the time. Most mom and pop boats of that day were designed with many IOR influences even if not intended as race boats. This Dufour is a good exmple. Part of that IOR influence was a very small transom in order to control the AGS and AIGS, girth stations aft. These small transoms are a dead give away that this boat is heavily IOR infuenced. You can see the same influences on the Arpege 30 designed in the tail end of the RORC rule. RORC also encouraged a narrow transom as it too used girth stations to detemnine "L". The IOR adopted the RORC girth station method of determining "L". That lead to a whole era of boats with pinched ends. I had the fun of doing some long distance races on an Arpege 30 many years ago. It was a slow boat in light air and had a small rig to allow it, I think, to rate half ton class. Good little boat and popular but boring to sail.

You could propbably attribute the reverse curve , concavity, in the bow profile also to the rule. This concavity would have squeezed the FGS and FIGS, flor ward girth stations, together to help reduuce "L" or measured lenghth.


I think it is best to discuss hull shapes from the 70's with some idea of how they were influenced by the IOR. Just like today, even if the boat is not intended as a racer everyone wants to think their boat looks like a racer.
Yes of course everybody knows that racing has a lot of influence in what regards hull shape and the way boats are rated also but the point regards racing boats is to make faster boats and even if sometime rating rules become obsolete and limit boat development in what regards speed potential it is also true that they have been changing accompanying boat evolution and allowing for better and faster boats.

The Dufour Arpege is much slower than the Dufour 31 and the Dufour 31GL is much faster than the 31. That has not to do with the way boats are rated but with hull evolution and absolute boat performance.

Today (happily) in what regards main cruising boat evolution the boats are no more designed to rate well under any system but designed to perform as well and comfortably as possible, offering a good interior space. In fact the Dufour GL will rate badly under IRC or ORC.

That is due to the change on offer regarding the type of boats that is much bigger today. The chances of a buyer of a Dufour 31 GL to indulge in some racing besides cruising are so slim that they are not taken into consideration in what regards hull design anymore. A owner interested in doing that will buy a Dufour from the performance series, an Elan, a Salona or a First.

This was not the reality in Europe 40 years ago were the choice of boats were much more limited and a boat like the Arpege or the Dufour 31 would be used for both things. I believe that is a bit what still happens in the US regarding club racing but not what happens here anymore.

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

"Yes of course everybody knows that racing has a lot of influence in what regards hull shape and ratings "

Not sure that "everyone knows" Paulo but I get your snide point.
My comments were never intended as an "argument" but simply my way of filling in some gaps in your history of the early boats.

No discussion of hull shapes from that era is complete without mention of rule influences. And your comment that the 31's transom would have looked "huge" is not correct. If anything, at that time we watched in wonder as transoms just got smaller and smaller.
This has zero to do with what anyone does with these boats today. But it has a lot to do with where the original design ideas came from so any accurate history of the models is incomplete without mention of the prevailing rule. The shapes make no sense without it. That's just reality.
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Half ton class winners as boring boats to sail and their designers:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
... Arpege 30 .. I had the fun of doing some long distance races on an Arpege 30 many years ago. It was a slow boat in light air and had a small rig to allow it, I think, to rate half ton class. Good little boat and popular but boring to sail....
Your notion of popular and boring is curious

The Arpege won the 1967 half ton cup and made 6th in 1970, 8th in 1971 and won many top races. The boat contrary to most of the other top half toners was not only a good racer but also a great cruising boat with lot's of interior space for the time. There are very few sailboats that have sold 1500 boats of the same model and that means that this was a truly great dual boat.

Calling boring to sail to a boat that had won on his time the most prestigious racing world trophy for that size of boats, it is an interesting opinion. Maybe you find your Baba 30, designed 10 years later and still with a full keel a more amusing boat to sail. Everybody has is tastes in what regards sailboats. No wrong or right here.

BABA 30 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

The half ton cup was to sailboat development, between the late 60's and the 80's, what the mini racer class is today for revealing the talent of young designers that later become some of the better worldwide NA, many of them still major names today in what regards boat design and innovation. All cutting edge designers then and amazingly, some still remain cutting edge designers today contributing actively for the development of sailboat design.

Just have a look at the names that were involved on the development of those boats:

Michel Dufour, Philippe Harlé, Peter Norlin, André Mauric, Finot, Sparkman and Stephens, Van De Statd, Philippe Briand, Michel Joubert, Doug Peterson, Ron Holland, Bruce Farr, Joubert-Nivelt, Jean Berret, Daniel Andrieu, Tony Castro, Ed Dubois, Jacques Fauroux, Rob Humphreys, Georg Nissen, Stephen Jones, Håkan Södergren, Judel & Vrolijk, Hugh Welbourne, Vallicelli, German Frers, Ceccarelli.

Some other opinions and facts about the Dufour Arpege:

The Arpege was, in my view, anyway, the first really modern GRP production yacht. I saw one for the first time at the 1969 Boat Show and was amazed at the genius of the design. It provided very spacious, light and well-ventilated accommodation, a huge navigatorium, six proper berths with none crammed into the forepeak, a comfortable cockpit and a nice clean deck without angles or sharp corners.....

The Arpege was a noted performer, too. I am sure it won the Round The Island Race at its first attempt - John Oakley at the helm, I think, and went on to win offshore and inshore races all over the world. In any kind of weather the boat was so well balanced it steered with a light touch on a tiller so short and fragile-looking that it seemed to belong to another much smaller boat.

Many Arpeges have made long ocean voyages, too.


1001 Boats: Dufour Arpege

Michel Dufour's innovative design was little short of revolutionary back in 1966, with its intricate interior mouldings and brilliant detailing. Today, though, she appears more idiosyncratic than brilliant, although those who have sailed her say she is perfect for fast offshore cruising. She was a huge success (over 400 a year being built at one time) and set Dufour on the road to becoming one of Europe's biggest boatbuilders...

Her interior pioneered the use of internal mouldings, with slots to locate bulkheads and foam sandwich for the decks. Beamy and shallow bodied with a high-aspect rig, she performed well on the racing circuit....

Although not to everyone's taste, the interior works well, particularly offshore. There were several variants, the most significant of which were an extended counter and a deeper fin. Both are desirable ...

Read more at Dufour Arpège boat review | Yacht reviews | Yachting Monthly

In 1965, Michel Dufour introduced the leading-edge Arpege, a 30-foot racer/cruiser that combined cruising elements with a winning race pedigree and would serve as the basis of what is today Dufour Yachts.

BLUE WATER SAILING

The Arpege was designed by Michael Dufour in 1966 as the first of his volume production boats. It quickly gained a reputation in Half Ton Cup racing. However, it was also a spacious boat, with a very broad beam for its time, as a review in 1966 commented "it is astonishing how much space below the increase in beam makes."

Arpege
...
Down below
Michel Dufour was quite innovative when it came to interior layouts, and the Arpege was no exception. Instead of squeezing in a double berth forward, the small forepeak was dedicated to sail and other storage. A private athwartships head is aft of the forepeak. The saloon features opposite facing settees with pilot berths above. I like this arrangement. When coupled with a lee cloth, pilot berths are excellent sea berths located out of the traffic flow. I always commandeer a pilot berth if it’s available.

The Arpege has an impressive galley for a 1960s-era 30-footer. Opposite the galley is the nav station, again an unusual feature in an older small boat, and the nav desk is large enough to work comfortably. The galley and the nav station can be closed off from the saloon for added privacy. There are quarter berths port and starboard, and if you can resist filling them up with gear, they make great sea berths. There is adequate storage below the settees and, of course, excellent storage in the forepeak. The table is designed to be stowed away and can also be used as a cockpit table. The finish work is really quite nice, trimmed in mahogany. There’s even a built-in wine rack....

Under way
Two of the owners that I managed to communicate with in France explained that they sailed all over the Bay of Biscay every year and that the Arpege is really at its best in heavy weather. The chap I spoke with in Oakland, who has sailed his Arpege extensively offshore, confirmed this notion.

Mike Addelman owns a 1973 model that he sails on Biscayne Bay in Miami. When asked about the boat’s performance parameters, Addelman told me via e-mail that he is surprised how well the Arpege points and not surprised that it tracks well too. While it doesn’t accelerate like a modern boat, it doesn’t slow down easily either. He noted that several years ago, he finished third in class in the Columbus Day Regatta despite a weekend of very light wind. ...


Dufour Arpege 30





It seems to me and to many like a very innovative boat for his time, a great cruiser that could also win races and top ones too. A great design that was also a great success among sailors with about 1500 boats made. Describing it as a a "was a slow boat in light air ..but boring to sail" seems not go with the overall picture.

Some photos of the hull:

Dufour Arpege archive data - Yachtsnet Ltd. online UK yacht brokers - yacht brokerage and boat sales

Just look at this keel on an almost 50 year old mass produced main market cruiser:





Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 02-23-2014 at 08:46 AM.
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Extreme sailing series, Singapore: Another big crash



I don't know who has the idea of putting those boats racing in such a tight place but it was not a bright idea

These boast have huge accelerations and are very large. During those accelerations it is not easy to control the boat and the rudder alone is not enough to change direction. Treating the needs in space for these boats to race as if they were monohulls is plain crazy and the results are there. Besides it is dangerous. I don't believe the teams are very pleased with the race management.
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Anybody hurt in that, Paulo?? Amazing if not..
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Extreme series accident:

Yes they were very lucky, just a Grupama sailor with minor injuries. All the other where blindingly fast jumping on the water:

" Approaching the finish line, Groupama gybed onto starboard tack to respect the priority she was obliged to give her rival. Unfortunately Aberdeen went out of control in a violent gust and slammed into Groupama, which was powerless to avoid it.

Aberdeen's windward float, hydroplaning wildly, broke Groupama's mast after knocking Tanguy Cariou over, slightly damaging his head in the process, whilst three of the other four crew jumped into the water to avoid injury.

Questioned about the incident on his return to shore, the skipper of Groupama explained
: "'I had absolutely no idea it was coming, other than a shadow. We'd just finished our gybe and were powering along towards the finish line when it happened.

Nick Moloney regretted the incident, but wasn't able to bear away (alter his course) due to his gennaker, which was flapping in a strong gust of wind. His windward float was very high and it hit our mast, which subsequently snapped in half with the impact.

Together with Sophie (de Turckheim) and Thierry (Fouchier), we jumped overboard to avoid being injured. Tanguy Cariou, who was in the middle of the boat, on the net, took a body blow from the incoming boat and got knocked on the head. He went to hospital but fortunately it wasn't anything serious. As for Devan Le Bihan, he was unhurt.' "


It now remains to be seen if Tanguy Cariou will be able to take up his post as tactician: 'I'm back from hospital. They gave me a few stitches above the eye, but my back's killing me, my right shoulder is a mess and I really took quite a knock. At the present time, I find it hard to envisage returning to my post aboard the boat tomorrow. Franck and I will discuss the matter,' he explained.

Sail-World.com : Extreme Sailing Series - Groupama takes a hit, but won't back down


It is a pity. They had finished the last race (today) in 2nd and were going up on the classification. Cammas says he can repair the boat for tomorrow but I don't know if that injured guy is in conditions to race tomorrow.

and it seems that it is not only me that thinks that racing should not be done there, in such a tight space:

A spectacular pile-up between two boats at the Extreme Sailing Series in Singapore has prompted crews to seek reassurances from organisers that conditions in Marina Bay are safe for racing.

“We could feel the conditions getting fruity and we were massively relieved to have got through the finish line,” said Leigh McMillan, skipper of The Wave, Muscat, the race winners.
“The wind was coming in so fast and there was this bottleneck with nowhere for the boats to go. When the gusts hit, you lose control and there is nothing you can do. We were extremely concerned and were waiting to hear that everyone was safe.
“Ideally we would be in slightly less risky conditions,” ..
“There have been plenty of close moments when things could have gone horribly wrong and there has to be some consideration for the safety of the crews and make sure the organisers are not forcing us into dangerous situations.”


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/oth...questions.html
...

This was Yesterday, another crash:

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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Nice history lesson Paulo. I knew most of it.

The difference is that I have actually sailed the Arpege, many miles while, you have only read about it.

Yes, at one time it was a "rocket" and a race winner. It was a great little boat and very succesful. (Haven't I said this already?) I did mention it rated at Half Ton class level. But by 1974 it was no longer a rocket. It was out designed. That happens. It had a very short rig and in light air it was a very BORING boat to sail. You can change "boring" to "slow" if that suits you better. In the prestigious Chicago-Macinac race we eventually dropped out at Frankfurt due to consustant very light air. We spent a day and a half getting that far. We were very good sailors, four of us were paid to sail that race, so I know it was not us. But in the light stuff that boat was hard to make go. It needed a bigger rig. Compared to Peter Norlin's SCAMPI of the same era, another boat with a short rig, the Arpege was not competitive by 1974. Times change. Expectations of performance change.
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Last edited by bobperry; 02-22-2014 at 05:45 PM.
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