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post #6261 of 6763 Old 02-23-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Paulo:
I am struggling to understand your argument here.

The Arpege rated well under the RORC and fit the Half Ton Class limit. I am sure it was designed to fit the Half Ton class. It would not have been an accident. Yacht designers do not work that way. It was a very effective RORC design and It's race record proves without a doubt that it was a very effecient racing yacht in it's early days.

A similar US production boat of that era would be the Robert Finch designed Islander 30. It was a comfy and fast cruiser/racer. I raced many miles on one myself. The big difference between the Arpege and the Islander 30 was the I-30 was a more advanced design with a broad stern and a spade rudder. However it would have rated well above the Half Ton Class limit. On the whole, if hull numbers are your criteria for sucess then yes, they built more Arpeges than I-30's. I think they built about 500 I-30's.

But I'm really, truly done arguing this Paulo. I am comfortable with my facts.

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post #6262 of 6763 Old 02-23-2014 Thread Starter
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Best selling American sailboat in 1966?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Paulo:
I am struggling to understand your argument here.
....

A similar US production boat of that era would be the Robert Finch designed Islander 30. It was a comfy and fast cruiser/racer. I raced many miles on one myself. The big difference between the Arpege and the Islander 30 was the I-30 was a more advanced design with a broad stern and a spade rudder. ..
You mean that the Islander 30 was the mass production cruiser more sold in the US on the late 60's?

"The ISLANDER 30 is a raised deck version of the ISLANDER 29"

ISLANDER 30 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

The 1968 Islander 29/30 of that era was designed by Joseph McGlasson or at least is the information here:

ISLANDER 29 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

It looks "old" when compared with the Arpege:





I think the Islander 30 you refer (by Robert Finch) was a 1970 boat designed 4 years later. They build the boat from 1966 to 1985 (19 years) and even so they only built 500 sailboats. are you sure this was the best sailing boat in the US at the time?

The Arpege was built from 1966 to 1976 and they built 1500 but the sales were residual after 1973 because the boat was replaced by the Dufour 31, a more modern and fast boat, a boat very similar to the Islander 30 Bahama by Robert Finch (1973).

ISLANDER BAHAMA 30 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

I don't know if this one was the best seller but certainly sold more boats at that time: From 1965 to 1969 (only 4 years) sold 304 boats, the Columbia 29 MKII:



and then substituted by this one (Columbia 30) that from 1971 to 1973 sold 287 boats.



This means a total of 591 sailboats sold in 6 years, much more than the 500 islanders sold in 19 years.

Remember we are talking about main market and what defines main market is the number of boats sold: Those are the boats the average cruiser want, not the ones that want them to race. The Arpege was a main market boat, the Islander not. it seems the Columbia were much more but I don't know the American market of the end of the 60's and I don't know if there was boats with more sales (30ft) then the Columbia.


Regards

Paulo


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post #6263 of 6763 Old 02-23-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Paulo:

No. Read my post again.
I clearly said "the Robert Finch designed Islander 30".
I have no idea why you posted drawings of those other boats. You are confused.

I am referring to the Islander 30 designed by Robert Finch.
I chose this boat because it was a very popular boat that was raced and cruised. I chose this boat because I raced on an Islander 30 for two years. I know this boat. It's just a nice, dual purpose boat from about the same era as the Arpege. Nothing more.

The Columbia sold well but it was not a well built boat and despite the fact that they sold a lot of them, due to low cost, it was never a succesful race boat. There was a death in a heavy air race in my area in1974 aboard a Columbia 30 with a rudder failure. I was in that race.

But I never mentioned Columbia's in my post. Why are you mentioning Columbias? Columbia built some interesting and very succesful boats. The Columbia 26 was hugely succesful and a very effective racer. The Columbia 52 was quite succesful. But they were chopper gun boats and not well put together. They had a very spotty reputation for quality. I would not use them for a reference.

I think it's high time you let this go. Give it a rest. I have no idea what you are trying to prove. You said your piece and I said mine.

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post #6264 of 6763 Old 02-23-2014 Thread Starter
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Paulo:

No. Read my post again.
I clearly said "the Robert Finch designed Islander 30".
I have no idea why you posted drawings of those other boats. You are confused.

I am referring to the Islander 30 designed by Robert Finch.
I chose this boat because it was a very popular boat that was raced and cruised. I chose this boat because I raced on an Islander 30 for two years. I know this boat. It's just a nice, dual purpose boat from about the same era as the Arpege. Nothing more.

The Columbia sold well but it was not a well built boat and despite the fact that they sold a lot of them, due to low cost, it was never a succesful race boat. There was a death in a heavy air race in my area in1974 aboard a Columbia 30 with a rudder failure. I was in that race.

But I never mentioned Columbia's in my post. Why are you mentioning Columbias? Columbia built some interesting and very succesful boats. The Columbia 26 was hugely succesful and a very effective racer. The Columbia 52 was quite succesful. But they were chopper gun boats and not well put together. They had a very spotty reputation for quality. I would not use them for a reference.

I think it's high time you let this go. Give it a rest. I have no idea what you are trying to prove. You said your piece and I said mine.
It seems you don't understand and I find it odd.

The sailboat market has many segments: Race boats, top cruiser racers that are much more used for racing than for cruising, performance cruisers, main market cruisers, luxury cruisers, voyage boats, daysailers and so on.

What defines main market is the type of boats that sell more while cruisers. There will be faster cruiser racers and performance cruisers but their sales are small comparatively with the main market.

The Arpege was a main market cruiser and the cruiser that sold more boats in all Europe during several years.

I said that probably the best selling main market American cruiser on 1966 was a full keel boat and if it had 30ft, a slower boat than the Arpege.


You talk about a 1970 (or 1973) boat, an Islander designed by Robert Finch that was not obviously the most sold boat in 1966 because it was only designed several years after that. It was not also, contraty to the Arpege the American bestseller on the 30ft cruising class. The Columbias sold much more on the late 60's, beginning of the 70's and they are a different type of boat.

I posted the Columbia because the Colombia 29 is not a posterior design regarding the Arpege and because it was much more a main market boat (sold much more), compared with the Islander 30. I posted the Islander that existed in 1966, when the Arpege was designed and it was not the one designed by Finch, but an old looking boat.

Your main confusion here seems to keep thinking that the Arpege was a race boat. It was not it was a main market coastal cruiser and the best seller regarding that type of boats in Europe

I hope it is clear now

Regards

Paulo


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post #6265 of 6763 Old 02-23-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

This is the Islander 30 that Bob is referring to:





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post #6266 of 6763 Old 02-23-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

I have no idea what are saying anymore Paulo. It seems like you are like a dog chasing his tail.

But to put this to a quick end because it has now become silly how about this:
Yes, Paulo you are right. You are always right. I was silly to think that I could have my own opinion. You always know better.

Paulo's Papal pronouncements are infallible.

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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Miti:
Yep, that's the boat. I did Swiftsure on one, twice. The second time was the beginning of the blooper era. We borrowed a chute from a lightning Class sloop and tried to fly it like a blooper. They were very good boats, stiff and relatively fast. Nice and roomy and pretty well built. I always thought they had a nice clean look to them.

They had one area where you had to be careful. Look at that profile drawing. Focus on the rudder. In reverse if you let go of the rudder it would spin arouind and hit the prop.

Robert Finch was a full time fireman in So Cal and a part time yacht designer. This was his most succesful design. The next boat Islander produced was my Islander 28.

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post #6268 of 6763 Old 02-23-2014 Thread Starter
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Bermuda 77

On another thread there was some talk about this boat, a Shionning design. Schionning design would be much bigger if it was not an Australian cabinet, away from the main markets. Their expertise in Cats is just great and they have some of the best designs around.

The Bermuda 77 was built in South Africa and are going to be used as a charter in the Bermudas. That's a new tendency in what regards luxury charter boats and many big cats are being built for that market. This one looks great:

















from Julie Geldard on Vimeo.



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post #6269 of 6763 Old 02-23-2014 Thread Starter
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
This is the Islander 30 that Bob is referring to:




Thanks Mitiempo, I know. That is a 1970 (73?) design. The Arpege is a 1966 design. In 1966 the current Islander 29 was a boat with an old designed keel, kind of a modified full keel, a slow boat.

All the discussion was about Bob saying that the Arpege was a slow boat and a boring boat to sail. That has to do with the type of boat the Arpege is, I mean being slow. Bob thought that the Arpege was a race boat or a sports boat. It was not. It was a main market big production coastal cruiser and the best selling cruiser in Europe for several years.

To compare the Arpege with an American boat, to see if it is slow or boring, you would have to compare it with a boat of the same segment and a boat from the same time (1966) and from the same segment market: main market, meaning the type of boats that sell more (that's what make them main market).

Bob gave as example of a boat that only appeared 4 years after the Arpege was on the market and one type of boat that was not main market on the American market. I don't know the American market of the end of the 60's, beginning of the 70's but I noticed that on that period of time the Columbia type was much more popular than the Islander (sold much more when the Arpege was in production) and therefore it was a much better base of comparison as two main market boats, regarding being boring or slow.

Four years later, at about the same time the boat Bob is referring was launched appeared on the European market the Scampi 30 a Swedish boat designed by the Swede Peter Norlin. That was a much more sportive and expensive boat, sold in small numbers and that for 3 years dominated the half ton cup. Not main market for sure

Anyway Bob is contradicting himself : he says that the Arpege is radical for its time and is a race boat and then says that as a main market cruiser (that's what the boat is) is slow and boring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
The fact that the Arpege won the Half Ton Cup proves, to at least it's crew, that it was a racing boat. if it were not a race boat I sincerely doubt it would have entered the half Ton Cup series.

If you look at the competition for the 1966 Half Ton Cup you will see that the Arpege with it's fin keel and separate rudder was almost "radical" for it's time. In those days many boats still had full keels.
...
Bottom point, what I said and repeat is that the boat in 1966 had a remarkable performance for a main market mass production coastal cruiser, so good that it won several races, a thing that was not intended on his design program. As Bob agrees it was a radical boat for its time and one that helped to spread the concept of a modern boat with a fin ballasted keel and a rudder well away from the keel. Certainly not a boring or slow boat for 1966.




Regards

Paulo


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New Finot 100ft Nomad IV

I only wish that guy stop cutting the movie and let us see this carbon beauty. What a waste of a movie. Couldn't they have a professional doing that movie, being that a multi-million boat and all?


from Tanguy Conq on Vimeo.



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