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  #6261  
Old 02-22-2014
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Extreme series collision:

From another angle:



I have tried to find the movies of today races but all I kind find is movies with the collision
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Last edited by PCP; 02-22-2014 at 06:00 PM.
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  #6262  
Old 02-22-2014
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Talking Pretty incredible racing video

It has already some months but I never has saw it. If I had I would remember and I bet the guys on that boat will never forget this stunt I had a good laugh LOL

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  #6263  
Old 02-22-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

The internet is so much fun!

Where are they sailing in that cat collision video? I'd like to see a vid shot from a helicpoter.
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Last edited by bobperry; 02-23-2014 at 09:10 AM.
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  #6264  
Old 02-23-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
.. I did mention it rated at Half Ton class level. But by 1974 it was no longer a rocket. It was out designed. That happens. It had a very short rig and in light air it was a very BORING boat to sail. You can change "boring" to "slow" if that suits you better. ... Compared to Peter Norlin's SCAMPI of the same era, another boat with a short rig, the Arpege was not competitive by 1974. Times change. Expectations of performance change.
I don't know if you noticed but that was the point of that post: Design evolution, changes in hulls and increased performance. Obviously when I was saying that the Arpege was a great design, or fast, I was referring to the time he was designed, back in 1966, not now, not 8 years later. In 1974 the Arpege had already been substituted in the Dufour line by the 31, a faster boat. It was obviously outdated back in 1974 and that's why it had been already substituted by the 31, a very different hull.

The point of that post was tho show the evolution of the hulls and the increase in performance associated with it since 1966 to our days: The new beamy Dufour 31GL has a much better overall performance than the almost 50 year old narrow designed (but beamy for the time) Arpege.

The Arpege was regarding its time a much faster boat than the Dufour 31GL is today. The Arpege was a top race winner, while the 31GL, while much faster on overall performance, today has not the potential to win any major race neither would be considered a performance cruiser, like it was the Arpege back in 1966.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 02-23-2014 at 09:08 AM.
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  #6265  
Old 02-23-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Paulo:
Your initial post on the Arpege makes no mention at all of it's racing record or the fact that it was a RORC design. This is an important part of the history of that boat. It was very successful under that rule and the design is heavily influenced by that rule. I just filled in the gaps in your "history". In that initial post you also mention that the stern would have looked "huge" your word. That is incorrect. In fact just the opposite. It was a time when sterns were getting very smaller and smaller. I was simply trying to add some clarification and accuracy.

But my last post was purely to address you confusion and questioning my use of the word "boring". You did ask that question. I explained that by 1974 the Arpege was very dated in terms of performance. In short, it was slow and not a lot of fun to race. That's all there is to it.

I'm happy to add clarification and accuracy and time I can. I enjoy doing it.
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  #6266  
Old 02-23-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Paulo:
Your initial post on the Arpege makes no mention at all of it's racing record or the fact that it was a RORC design. This is an important part of the history of that boat. It was very successful under that rule and the design is heavily influenced by that rule. ...
Bob, contrary to what you think the Arpege was not a racing boat, it was not designed with with racing in mind but with cruising and that's why it had a hull less influenced by IOR than the Norlin, a 1970 design.

1966 Arpege:



1970 Scampi:





It was a mass production main market cruiser that sold 1500 boats in some few years. No race boat sells like that. If you think it was slow for the time try to compare it with the cruising boats that in 1966 sold more boats in the US. Compare it with what is comparable. I am quite sure that you will have to agree that was a very fast cruising boat for the time and anything but boring under a cruising perspective.

The fact that they have found out that cruising boat was fast and could win on the Half ton cup has an incident not something that was intended from the beginning.

Off course, all cruising boats (or almost all) have hulls influenced by racing boats since these represent the state of the art in what regards performance and they are also influence by the rating rules that are there not to influence design but to rate with fairness sailing boats. At some time they all create distortions but then they are changed to allow faster and more modern boats to be competitive. In the meantime they have influence on how the sailboats are designed...well not anymore in what regards main cruising boats since they have followed open boats that are not designed to a rating.

I have been discussing at length that on this thread regarding ORC and IRC rating and the way they are evolving and everybody that follows this thread knows that and the influence they have on boats designed to compete specifically under those rules.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 02-23-2014 at 10:35 AM.
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  #6267  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Not sure if this is "intreresting" enough for this thread but I thought you might like to see how the design process works at this level. During a recent trip to the yard a change was made in the galley that impacted our forward companionway ladder. This boat is 63' and has two companionways. So we have redesigned the forward companionway hatch into "scuttle" type profile hatch and we are now playing with curved companionway ladder. The scuttle type hatch was popular on boats of the 1930's thru the 1950's and used by S&S on several of their boats. It fits with our classic American look on this design.



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  #6268  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

The fact that the Arpege won the Half Ton Cup proves, to at least it's crew, that it was a racing boat. if it were not a race boat I sincerely doubt it would have entered the half Ton Cup series.


If you look at the competition for the 1966 Half Ton Cup you will see that the Arpege with it's fin keel and separate rudder was almost "radical" for it's time. In those days many boats still had full keels.

The Arpege had more beam than a Scampi because it was designed to a totally different rule at a totally different time. The boats have almost nothing in common. The Scampi is an IOR design, Arpege RORC. Two different rules that produced different boats. The Scampi even has a chine!

"and everybody that follows this thread knows that and the influence they have on boats designed to compete specifically under those rules."

Well, you'll just have to excuse me Paulo. I don't believe that "everybody" knows anything. I believe some people do and some don't. And when I see misinformation posted or a history posted with gaping holes in it I will continue to speak up and do my best to correct the situation. I feel very confident doing this.
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  #6269  
Old 02-23-2014
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Philippe Briand last boats: Inoui and Bristolian II

I don't think there are many chances of the next First 50 to be designed by Philippe Briand but since he had designed the last one (as well as the 45) I went to his site to see if there was any news about it. There was not but since I was there I took the occasion to have a look on his last sailingboats.

Philippe Briand was one of those NA that participated actively (and with success) on the Half Ton cup battle that was not only a battle on the water but also a design battle. His tastes for performance and how to get it come from there and was completed by a refined aesthetically view on design. His boats are always very elegant.

It was with some surprise that I found out that his last one (2013) was not as elegant as the last ones. Don't make mistakes, it is a beautiful boat but there are some things that don't add, like the color of the boat and the superstructure, the slightly outdated look (for Briand) and then I saw what the owner wanted:

"This design is based on the requirements of her owner, who wanted a high performance yet ‘timeless’ sailboat."

Well, timeless for many means just not looking too contemporary and in what regards colors...well it seems to me the owner had a big say on that. Just look at the interior. I bet the designer made the possible to accommodate the "tastes" of the owner giving them quality...but even so...

The 108ft Inoui



It goes "well" with the outside green.





Anyway this is a very interesting boat with a lifting keel and an all carbon one. More and more top performance cruising boats, even production ones are opting for Carbon as material, when costs are not to be the main concern.

But in what regards aesthetics just compare it with the 5 year's older Bristolian:















Too contemporary for the Inoui owner? It seems so. Bristolian is also an all carbon boat with a lifting keel, just about 3m bigger than Inoui.

What a yacht

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Last edited by PCP; 02-23-2014 at 11:21 AM.
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  #6270  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
The fact that the Arpege won the Half Ton Cup proves, to at least it's crew, that it was a racing boat. if it were not a race boat I sincerely doubt it would have entered the half Ton Cup series.


If you look at the competition for the 1966 Half Ton Cup you will see that the Arpege with it's fin keel and separate rudder was almost "radical" for it's time. In those days many boats still had full keels.

... And when I see misinformation posted or a history posted with gaping holes in it I will continue to speak up and do my best to correct the situation. I feel very confident doing this.
Sure Bob. Yes then like now there was cutting edge designers that had already leaved the full keel behind and others that decades after that still designed cruising boats with full keels.



Regarding the Arpege you don't know what you are talking about (regarding being a race boat). Translated from the French:

"L'Arpege released in 1967, quickly became the emblem of the Dufour brand, allowing it to become the first French and European manufacturer. ..

L'Arpege is a coastal cruising sloop designed by the naval architect Michel Dufour (founder of the company Dufour Yachts in 1964), and built between 1967 and 1976 in the yards in the same name as its creator, in La Rochelle (Charente -Maritime)."


Arpège, un sloop dessiné et construit en 1967, par Michel Dufour. | All Boats Avenue

L'Arpege is a coastal cruising sailboat designed by the naval architect Michel Dufour and built between 1967 and 1976 at sites Dufour Yachts in La Rochelle (Charente-Maritime, France).

Wikipedia

The Arpege was designed by Michael Dufour in 1966 as the first of his volume production boats. It quickly gained a reputation in Half Ton Cup racing. However, it was also a spacious boat, with a very broad beam for its time, as a review in 1966 commented "it is astonishing how much space below the increase in beam makes."

Arpege

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post

... And when I see misinformation posted or a history posted with gaping holes in it I will continue to speak up and do my best to correct the situation. I feel very confident doing this.

I have no doubt you are a very confident man.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 02-23-2014 at 12:30 PM.
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