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  #6271  
Old 02-23-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

No need to be snide again Paulo.

By definition if the Arpege won the Half Ton Cup it was a race boat. and an effective one.
"It quickly gained a reputation in Half Ton Cup racing."

But be clear that what we would define as a "race boat" today is not the same way it would have been defined in 1966. Those were the days of dual purpose boats that were intended to be raced one day and family cruised the next. You can see the exat same philosophy at work in the CCA boats of the same era. They were very cruisy boats designed to rate well under the CCA rule. They were raced and cruised. The line of distiction was not so defined as it is today.

I have no need to belabor this subject any further.

I know you don't like to be challenged on your "facts" but this is a public forum so I will continue to challenge when I think it is warranted.
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  #6272  
Old 02-23-2014
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Philippe Briand last boats: P2 and Vertigo

The 38m P2 is also a 2008 design and even if I like it less than Bristolian it is a very beautiful yacht with a great interior. It was designed for Perini and it is an aluminium one:















The Yacht P2 competes at the St.Barts Bucket (filmed from the air and onboard). from Onne van der Wal on Vimeo.



But the most incredible one is the Vertigo 220, yes 220ft An aluminum boat.

It is very difficult to design this big yachts that always look like a cross between a motorboat and a sailing boat due to the interior space requirements (charter). Not this one. Its design for this type of yacht is absolutely brilliant:

























I hope he finds time to continue to design for us, poor guys that have to content with smaller sailboats. Even those he designs admirably well. The last design in what regards production boats is the very recent and beautiful CNB 76 (I have posted about it). Before that the CNB 60, the jeanneau 57DS and 53Ds, the Sun Odyssey 509, 469, and the 409, a truly great design. Also great designs the First 45 and First 50, two boats that join performance with a great cruising interior.

I like particularly the First 45 that even if near its replacement time is still one of the most beautiful boats around, inside and outside. Kind of classic on its lines.



Interior 360:

Beneteau-first-45
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  #6273  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
..
By definition if the Arpege won the Half Ton Cup it was a race boat. and an effective one.
"It quickly gained a reputation in Half Ton Cup racing."

But be clear that what we would define as a "race boat" today is not the same way it would have been defined in 1966. Those were the days of dual purpose boats that were intended to be raced one day and family cruised the next. ...
I have no need to belabor this subject any further.

I know you don't like to be challenged on your "facts" but this is a public forum so I will continue to challenge when I think it is warranted.
Bob, it was a mass production, big interior volume, coastal cruiser. The boat sold 1500 boats in some years and on a single year sold 400 boats. You should know that high profile performance cruisers, boats pointed more for racing than for cruising, don't sell this way. Didn't sell like that 50 years ago and don't sell in great numbers now.

The Arpege was for years the cruiser more sold in Europe. The boats that sold more are the ones that are designed to the main market, boats pointed to the average cruiser.

You probably will know what was the 30ft cruiser more sold on the US at that time. There you have a boat to compare with the Arpege in what regards sail performances (I bet it was a full keel boat and a lot slower, or more boring as you say).

The fact that a main market cruiser could have won the half ton cup and many other races only show how advanced that cruising design was for its time...and that's what i have been telling from the beginning. It also show that 50 years ago European cruisers liked already fast modern cruising boats.

Regard

Paulo
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  #6274  
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Talking First 45 racing and....with some problems: What a mess

Since we are talking about the First 45 that is not only a very nice cruiser but a good IRC racer, not a top one but one able to finish in podium places like on the 2013 Sydney Hobart

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Last edited by PCP; 02-23-2014 at 01:53 PM.
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  #6275  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Paulo:
I am struggling to understand your argument here.

The Arpege rated well under the RORC and fit the Half Ton Class limit. I am sure it was designed to fit the Half Ton class. It would not have been an accident. Yacht designers do not work that way. It was a very effective RORC design and It's race record proves without a doubt that it was a very effecient racing yacht in it's early days.

A similar US production boat of that era would be the Robert Finch designed Islander 30. It was a comfy and fast cruiser/racer. I raced many miles on one myself. The big difference between the Arpege and the Islander 30 was the I-30 was a more advanced design with a broad stern and a spade rudder. However it would have rated well above the Half Ton Class limit. On the whole, if hull numbers are your criteria for sucess then yes, they built more Arpeges than I-30's. I think they built about 500 I-30's.

But I'm really, truly done arguing this Paulo. I am comfortable with my facts.
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  #6276  
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Best selling American sailboat in 1966?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Paulo:
I am struggling to understand your argument here.
....

A similar US production boat of that era would be the Robert Finch designed Islander 30. It was a comfy and fast cruiser/racer. I raced many miles on one myself. The big difference between the Arpege and the Islander 30 was the I-30 was a more advanced design with a broad stern and a spade rudder. ..
You mean that the Islander 30 was the mass production cruiser more sold in the US on the late 60's?

"The ISLANDER 30 is a raised deck version of the ISLANDER 29"

ISLANDER 30 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

The 1968 Islander 29/30 of that era was designed by Joseph McGlasson or at least is the information here:

ISLANDER 29 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

It looks "old" when compared with the Arpege:





I think the Islander 30 you refer (by Robert Finch) was a 1970 boat designed 4 years later. They build the boat from 1966 to 1985 (19 years) and even so they only built 500 sailboats. are you sure this was the best sailing boat in the US at the time?

The Arpege was built from 1966 to 1976 and they built 1500 but the sales were residual after 1973 because the boat was replaced by the Dufour 31, a more modern and fast boat, a boat very similar to the Islander 30 Bahama by Robert Finch (1973).

ISLANDER BAHAMA 30 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

I don't know if this one was the best seller but certainly sold more boats at that time: From 1965 to 1969 (only 4 years) sold 304 boats, the Columbia 29 MKII:



and then substituted by this one (Columbia 30) that from 1971 to 1973 sold 287 boats.



This means a total of 591 sailboats sold in 6 years, much more than the 500 islanders sold in 19 years.

Remember we are talking about main market and what defines main market is the number of boats sold: Those are the boats the average cruiser want, not the ones that want them to race. The Arpege was a main market boat, the Islander not. it seems the Columbia were much more but I don't know the American market of the end of the 60's and I don't know if there was boats with more sales (30ft) then the Columbia.


Regards

Paulo
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  #6277  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Paulo:

No. Read my post again.
I clearly said "the Robert Finch designed Islander 30".
I have no idea why you posted drawings of those other boats. You are confused.

I am referring to the Islander 30 designed by Robert Finch.
I chose this boat because it was a very popular boat that was raced and cruised. I chose this boat because I raced on an Islander 30 for two years. I know this boat. It's just a nice, dual purpose boat from about the same era as the Arpege. Nothing more.

The Columbia sold well but it was not a well built boat and despite the fact that they sold a lot of them, due to low cost, it was never a succesful race boat. There was a death in a heavy air race in my area in1974 aboard a Columbia 30 with a rudder failure. I was in that race.

But I never mentioned Columbia's in my post. Why are you mentioning Columbias? Columbia built some interesting and very succesful boats. The Columbia 26 was hugely succesful and a very effective racer. The Columbia 52 was quite succesful. But they were chopper gun boats and not well put together. They had a very spotty reputation for quality. I would not use them for a reference.

I think it's high time you let this go. Give it a rest. I have no idea what you are trying to prove. You said your piece and I said mine.
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  #6278  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Paulo:

No. Read my post again.
I clearly said "the Robert Finch designed Islander 30".
I have no idea why you posted drawings of those other boats. You are confused.

I am referring to the Islander 30 designed by Robert Finch.
I chose this boat because it was a very popular boat that was raced and cruised. I chose this boat because I raced on an Islander 30 for two years. I know this boat. It's just a nice, dual purpose boat from about the same era as the Arpege. Nothing more.

The Columbia sold well but it was not a well built boat and despite the fact that they sold a lot of them, due to low cost, it was never a succesful race boat. There was a death in a heavy air race in my area in1974 aboard a Columbia 30 with a rudder failure. I was in that race.

But I never mentioned Columbia's in my post. Why are you mentioning Columbias? Columbia built some interesting and very succesful boats. The Columbia 26 was hugely succesful and a very effective racer. The Columbia 52 was quite succesful. But they were chopper gun boats and not well put together. They had a very spotty reputation for quality. I would not use them for a reference.

I think it's high time you let this go. Give it a rest. I have no idea what you are trying to prove. You said your piece and I said mine.
It seems you don't understand and I find it odd.

The sailboat market has many segments: Race boats, top cruiser racers that are much more used for racing than for cruising, performance cruisers, main market cruisers, luxury cruisers, voyage boats, daysailers and so on.

What defines main market is the type of boats that sell more while cruisers. There will be faster cruiser racers and performance cruisers but their sales are small comparatively with the main market.

The Arpege was a main market cruiser and the cruiser that sold more boats in all Europe during several years.

I said that probably the best selling main market American cruiser on 1966 was a full keel boat and if it had 30ft, a slower boat than the Arpege.


You talk about a 1970 (or 1973) boat, an Islander designed by Robert Finch that was not obviously the most sold boat in 1966 because it was only designed several years after that. It was not also, contraty to the Arpege the American bestseller on the 30ft cruising class. The Columbias sold much more on the late 60's, beginning of the 70's and they are a different type of boat.

I posted the Columbia because the Colombia 29 is not a posterior design regarding the Arpege and because it was much more a main market boat (sold much more), compared with the Islander 30. I posted the Islander that existed in 1966, when the Arpege was designed and it was not the one designed by Finch, but an old looking boat.

Your main confusion here seems to keep thinking that the Arpege was a race boat. It was not it was a main market coastal cruiser and the best seller regarding that type of boats in Europe

I hope it is clear now

Regards

Paulo
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  #6279  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

This is the Islander 30 that Bob is referring to:




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  #6280  
Old 02-23-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

I have no idea what are saying anymore Paulo. It seems like you are like a dog chasing his tail.

But to put this to a quick end because it has now become silly how about this:
Yes, Paulo you are right. You are always right. I was silly to think that I could have my own opinion. You always know better.

Paulo's Papal pronouncements are infallible.
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Last edited by bobperry; 02-23-2014 at 04:03 PM.
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