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post #6281 of 6763 Old 02-25-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Hi Bob,
You will find tons of pictures on the (french) web site "Voiles alternatives", especially under the "Ailes souples / Soft wings" folder.

May I plead for another type of "Mom & Mop" sails ? It's the "Ljungström sails evolution", an actual Lazy Pop system ! I made a page (in french again, sorry) about this : nauticaltrek.com/12771-2-voiles-ferlables-sur-mats-non-haubanes-montaubin-hobie-raptor-etc

Eric
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post #6282 of 6763 Old 02-25-2014 Thread Starter
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German Frers Swan 60 and a comparative look at some previous models.

German Frers had designed not only super yachts, but many production boats for the biggest shipyards like Dufour, Grand Soleil, Moody, Beneteau, Hylas, besides all Halberg-Rassy and Swan since the 80’s.

Regarding the Swan and since he is designing them for the past 30 years and the boats have always maintained the same basic program : cruiser–racers in a luxurious and not radical way, it would be very interesting not only to look at the Swan 60 but also to other successful designs along the years with about the same size to have a view at how hull, keel and ruder design have been evolving along the years allowing for better, faster and safer boats.

Off course, all performance cruisers that are meant to race as well as cruising have hulls influenced by racing boats since these represent the state of the art in what regards performance and they are also influence by the rating rules that are there not to influence design but to rate with fairness sailing boats. At some time they all create distortions but then they are changed to allow faster and more modern boats to be competitive.

In the end, looking at the global picture, more than the boats being influenced by rating rules it is the boat design development towards better and faster sailboats that promote the changes in rating rules. That does not mean that looking at a particular and localized period of time the opposite is not also true, with particular relevance some decades ago, meaning that some sailboat, particularly, cruiser-racer designs (that are always influenced in some extent by the existent rating), were heavily influenced by the distortions created by rating, trying to take the better deal out of it.

In some past cases, particularly in the 80’s that influence was really big creating in some cases less fast and less seaworthy sailboats in an attempt to protect the existent fleet from more light, stiff and faster sailingboats.

Saying this it is very clear that regarding these Swan models, the more recent is always a better sailboat regarding the previous one and regarding a comparison between the first, the 1980 Swan 51, and the last one, the 2009 Swan 60 the difference in performance, interior space, overall stability and speed is huge.

Consider also that the Swan and typically almost all Nordic boats are very conservative in what regards boat design. The Swan is considered a model of elegance precisely due to its almost classic lines regarding the time of its making, generally regarding all models. The hulls follow the same trend and even if always to the state of the art always followed a classical approach, meaning on tradition and evolving rather than radical or revolutionary.

That makes them particularly interesting for this time comparison even if the first design (1980 Swan 51) is substantially influenced by the IOR rule (that disappeared at the beginning of the 90’s). After 1990 the rating rules become much more adapted to sailboat developments searching a better sailing performance and the rules were increasingly modified to take into account new design improvements. Today the two major handicap rules, the IRC and ORC are revised each year and even if the IRC remains a partially secret formula, the ORC (with an open one) counts on its technical committee (that is responsible for those annual changes) with some of the best NA, in what regards to handicap racing design. There are serious plans to join the two major rating handicap systems on a single one in a near future.

In this comparison take also in consideration that beam in sailboat design (for the same type of boat) is not entirely proportional to the length of the boat and therefore a 60 would always have a more elongated shape than a 50 ft boat and that one the same regarding a 40ft boat.

The hulls, rudders and keels speak for themselves and the evolution direction is obvious and not particular to Frers but to modern yacht design, particularly to this on the tradition approach to sailboat development that we can find mostly in Nordic and Italian designs.

The 1980 Swan 51:



The 1990 Swan 55:



The 1996 Swan 56:




The 2009 Swan 60:



The Swan 60 marks also a new approach from Swan that asked to German Frers not only a boat that would be beautiful, able to cruise anywhere in comfort anyhere, competitive while racing but also a boat that could be sailed easily by a couple. For sure if German Frers had designed a new 2014 model we would have seen some minor differences regarding the 60, maximizing the water line regarding the bow and the transom and judging by more recent designs, with the beam further pulled back but as it is the Swan 60 is still a very contemporary boat and as most Swans, a beautiful boat.

German Frers says about the Swan 60 and its program:

"The new Swan 60 combines a voluminous interior, a large protected cockpit and racing performance.

To conciliate these futures, we have made extensive use of state of the art technology in both design and construction methods together with years of successful experiences in this size.

The end result is a low drag hull and appendage package, with a long dynamic waterline at displacement and semi planning speeds. These performance refinements bring also improved seakeeping characteristics.

The Sail plan is powerful but easy to handle. Most of the time the Mainsail and furling jib combination will be enough to achieve a good performance. A storm headsail can be hoisted on a separate stay. For light airs and downwind cruising a furling all purpose sail can be tacked in the bow.

For racing the possibility to mount a bowsprit with large area downwind sails will make for an exhilarating ride downwind. …

The thinking behind the deck was to provide more than one area to loosen up while sailing or at anchor to avoid that feeling of having to stay in one place and provide the opportunity to flow around the yacht at ease.

The yacht can be sailed easily by two persons with the aid of powered winches and a layout that allows the helmsman to get involved in the manoeuvre if needed.

The steering wheel is positioned right behind the cockpit to enhance the steering experience from a position that allows a good view of the sails and waves. ..

A raised platform in the aft part of the cockpit provides another protected area for sun bathing and allows the storage of a tender through the transom door.

An open cockpit version is available for the racing oriented owners together with a number of practical details that have been studied to combine user-friendliness and aesthetics.

The interior was designed having great spaces with plenty of natural light in mind.….

Hull windows, coachroof portholes and large hatches confer natural light and outside views.

Forward of the saloon, the hefty owners cabin grants the privacy and feeling of a larger yacht. There are two options for the layout of this cabin to allow personalisation.…

There are two draft options at 2.9 m and 3.6 m. Both keels use the same structure and provide the same stability so it’s easy to change if needed.

A new version available is a 2.5 m draft with a smaller rig, the ultimate cruiser.

The high stability, forgiving appendages and a direct steering system are all ingredients for a light and responsive yacht."


….



















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post #6283 of 6763 Old 02-25-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Eric:
Thanks I'll check that out. I found a couple of photos myself.

I used to race in beer can races against one of the original, reverse sheer, bubble cabin trunk, Ljungstrom rigs. It was not particularily fast but I don't know if that was the rig or the boat. It was interesting.

My article is for a blog and I don't want to get too obscure. If I say Ljungstrom rig over here, no one will know what I am talking about.

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Talking Cruising and circumnavigating on a nice hull

These crazy guys have been very popular on internet. They are cruising on a home made 12m boat, type RM (Plywood and epoxy). I said nice hull because in fact it is a very nice hull but the design of the cabin is awful.

In fact I have been trying to find out who is the NA, I mean the one that designed the plans, of that boat ("Mésange Noir" is the name). It seems to me a Lombard design but the owner don't say on any place who is the NA and I looked well. I bet that the NA was so horrified with that cabin that forbid him to say that boat was designed by him

But everything seems to have been made accordingly to the project and very nicely done, except the cabin. Nice project too.

Came on guys, can someone find the hull designer?

Regarding the videos, the two last have sub titles and they are not only funny but show a very light boat going fast and crossing oceans with five adults aboard, 5 crazy guys, I tell you







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Re: Interesting Sailboats

David Réard is the NA as you can see on the data sheet in the first vid from 4:17...
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post #6286 of 6763 Old 02-25-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

"That does not mean that looking at a particular and localized period of time the opposite is not also true, with particular relevance some decades ago, meaning that some sailboat, particularly, cruiser-racer designs (that are always influenced in some extent by the existent rating), were heavily influenced by the distortions created by rating, trying to take the better deal out of it. "

Huh?

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post #6287 of 6763 Old 02-25-2014 Thread Starter
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David Réard

Quote:
Originally Posted by robelz View Post
David Réard is the NA as you can see on the data sheet in the first vid from 4:17...
Thanks, I did not noticed that it was on the movie. Great eyes, it was not very easy to catch and I did not expect to be there since it is not on his site.

That's funny because I had been some days ago on David Réard site trying to get more information about one of his designs and certainly that particular boat is not there. I believe he is not very happy with the way that cabin looks. Probably it is a variation of a Classic 395 with a "funny" cabin. Doesn't look classic anymore

Edit: It is a Classic 395, this one:



For the length probably he considered the LOA with that big spi pole. No other they had only taken pictures from that boat from below. Very nice hull.

The Classic 395:







David Réard's most know sailboat is the Bepox and I had already posted here also about other of his boats, the Walkabout 43:

http://www.walkabout.it/en/yachts-projects/



The Bepox:







I was on the site a week ago looking for information on this boat:



I wanted to make a post about it and his solo skipper, that after having circumnavigated on the "right" direction is planing to use this boat (that was designed for that) to circumnavigate by the three capes, but this time against the prevailing winds and without any fossil energies.

I am very curious about what David Réard will consider the best 34ft boat to do that. Certainly not as beamy as what he normally designs for general use with that size but with only 34ft it cannot be too narrow. A boat with that size with passagemaking in mind needs all stability it can get, including hull form stability but cannot be too beamy since it will be going upwind most of the time.

An interesting young NA and among the one that has more interesting stock plans. Very interesting and nice boats:







































Regards

Paulo


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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Both of those cabin trunks are not very good looking.

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post #6289 of 6763 Old 02-26-2014 Thread Starter
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New boat: Euphoria 54

Euphoria? I bet this will not say anything to almost all. That’s a new line of yachts from Sirena…and even if some know the shipyard most will never have heard about it…but I am pretty sure that they will heard a lot more in the future.

If I say that Sirena is the shipyard that makes the Azuree that started with some interesting boats (33 and 40) and went one with a truly great one, the Azuree 46, then you all will understand what I am talking about.

Azuree 46:



I saw the boat in Dusseldorf and the design looks as good as on the video with a good quality interior. Great work by Rob Humphreys: a very fast, beautiful and comfortable cruiser.

I learned also that the “old” 40 was going to be replaced soon by another Rob Humpreys design (even if the 40 has few years) and I thought to myself, that these guys knew what they were doing, have the money to invest and probably would be a big shipyard in no time: High quality boat design brought by the best Nas, great building quality and a relatively low price should bring them success rapidly.

I thought that rob Humphreys would be their NA for all models but then I heard about Euphoria. Euphoria is not the name of a model but the name of a brand new line to join to the existent Azuree, a line of yachts that start at 56ft and has already previewed a 68 and a 84ft boat….and the designer of this one is not Humphries but German Frers.

They could have not chosen better: Humphreys for the “smaller” boats, Frers for the big yachts, boats with a superior finish, that will go on the Swan approach and I am not talking only about looks but also about the speed...at a much lower price.

What is fantastic is that I had heard about this new line just some time ago, they just finished launching the 46 and they have already the Euphoria 54 built and ready to launch: Big investment and hard play by this recent Turkish shipyard.

I had just seen the design and I was posting about it:












…and they have already the boat on display on the Istanbul Boat show:







The boat is not only beautiful, with an interior designed by one of the best design specialist cabinet:

DESIGN UNLIMITED | Superyacht interior design and exterior styling

as German Frers had made it very fast as we can see looking at the boat dimensions (just a bit more than 15 T):

LOA : 16.31m….LWL: 14.68m….Beam: 4.78m….Draft: 2.4/3.0m….Engine 75hp…. Tankage 700L water, 450L diesel.

The boat as also a big dingy garage. That is one modern trend on boats bigger than 55ft: what is the purpose of having a sleek and beautiful yacht if the line is spoiled by having a dingy over the deck or on davits? The last solution is not only less seaworthy as it puts a lot of weight on the back of the boat. Not a problem for a truly big yacht (except aesthetics) but not a good solution on a 60ft boat.

Some posts back I was saying that if German Frers designed the 2009 Swan 60 now, it would be already a slightly different hull, with a more straight bow and a beam a bit pulled more aft (because that's the general development direction followed almost by all top NA) and here it is a 2013 German Frers design with about that size and those characteristics. That's amazing the speed of design evolution on the last years: 4 years of difference and it is almost sure that the same NA (if a top one) would not design the "same" boat exactly the same way. Not big differences, but clearly visible ones.

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A swing keel for the Sun Odyssey 349

Finally the swing modern keel is mounted on one of the big mass produced cruisers and the honor goes to the Sun Odyssey 349:





Lifting keels are around for many years and some, like the Southerly even have ballasted ones but only with a percentage of the total boat ballast on them, but hydraulic lifting keels with big draft and all ballast on the keel are a relatively new concept even if they are widely used already by many smaller production French shipyards.

They are by far the best solution in what regards a need of small draft maintaining boat performance in boats were a truly lifting keel (vertically) occupies too much interior space and that means all boats smaller than 40ft and even bigger.

Regarding lifting keels, if well designed on relatively small sailboats these keels have the advantage of allowing for more draft when deployed lowering the CG and giving a great performance upwind.
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Last edited by PCP; 02-26-2014 at 01:15 PM.
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