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Oceanis 38 / Dehler 38

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Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
As said before and repeating again, It is always much easier to tune and increase a too small or "cheap" rig than a bad hull and keel. So, since I think the Oceanis 38 is such a good looking boat, both externally and especially internally, it is nice to read that the basics seems in place and adequately designed for good performance.
...
I personally would rather buy the Oceanis 38 and fix the rig instead of buying the comparatively traditionally designed Dehler with its missing hull windows. Or let's say it like this, do not show the Oceanis interior to your wife if you prefer another boat

On the other hand, a Dehler 38 with the Oceanis modern interior and hull windows and a super interesting package for our taste would be created. Partly it is already on the market but far too expensive. I am talking about the Solaris One 37.

Anders
Anders, the Solaris 37 has not the same type of hull of the Oceanis 38 but the type of hull of a Salona 38 or XP 38. Both have a far superior sailing performance regarding the Solaris 37. The Solaris 37 has a good sailing performance (better than the Oceanis 38, specially upwind) and a very good quality interior. A delightful boat, I agree, but not with a versatile interior like the Oceanis.

Regarding increasing performance on a hull like the Oceanis 38 I had already talked about this with you and that's when I talked about the boat needing to have a bigger B/D ratio for that.

As you know the boat has a smallish rig and to increase performance you would have to put a bigger rig, but rigs on sailboats are calculated regarding RM of the boat and knowing Conq taste for fast boats I am sure that boat has a rig as big as it can have with the present design parameters. To put a bigger rig it would be necessary to increase ballast and for that all boat structure would have to be reinforced resulting in a much more expensive boat. Not a thing one can do on a standard boat with Beneteau.

I agree the boat has a great interior and as test sailors have showed that boat has a very good performance downwind with lots of wind, were ballast is not as important and the big hull form stability and hull design give it an advantage.

Upwind, specially with waves, the boat would be very far away from a Dehler 38 simply because it has not the power to go against them with speed and overcome its superior wave drag. It is upwind that the ballast counts most compared with hull form stability.

I am not saying that the boat is not suited for you, it is a great sailboat regarding what is designed for, but not a performance cruisers. You are used to sail faster than other cruisers on the Opium 39. With this one with light conditions or upwind you will not have such look and all performance cruisers will be faster as well as some modern mass production cruisers of the same size.

That would have no importance to many but it causes me some confusion you consider downgrading performance from the Opium 39 to the Oceanis 38. I would have hated it. Yes the Oceanis 38 has a nicer and bigger interior than the Opium 39 and I understand that your wife would much prefer it but do you prefer it?

Anders since you are interested in the Oceanis 38 can't you ask to Benetau a Polar speed or speed chart just to see what is its performance? Benetau hates to give that sort of stuff even if Finot/Conq has it, but if you insist I am sure they will provide you with one.

Regards

Paulo


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post #6322 of 6763 Old 03-01-2014 Thread Starter
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Xp 38 2 cabin layout.

When the XP 38 come on the market just with one 3 cabin version layout and with a head in the middle of the boat (giving it a smallish saloon) I was quite pissed. A 3 cabin layout didn't make much sense and the way it was designed was poor, making for a not nice interior. At the time I said that the Salona 38 had a much nicer interior space.

Then, some time ago they come up with a 2 cabin layout (finally) and I said it here that it just looked nice but nothing as to be inside the boat to judge that and that's what I have done on the last Dusseldorf boat show. And yes the boat has improved hugely in what regards interior space an even design quality.

Very nice indeed. If I had no money limitations and would chose one 38fter for the type of sailing I do, it would be this one and 38ft is a very nice size for sailing solo and this one is a very fast sailboat. But I really would need a lot of money because the X-yachts high quality does not come cheap.

That's what I mean:





















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Re: Oceanis 38 / Dehler 38

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Anders, the Solaris 37 has not the same type of hull of the Oceanis 38 but the type of hull of a Salona 38 or XP 38. Both have a far superior sailing performance regarding the Solaris 37. The Solaris 37 has a good sailing performance (better than the Oceanis 38, specially upwind) and a very good quality interior. A delightful boat, I agree, but not with a versatile interior like the Oceanis.

Regarding increasing performance on a hull like the Oceanis 38 I had already talked about this with you and that's when I talked about the boat needing to have a bigger B/D ratio for that.

As you know the boat has a smallish rig and to increase performance you would have to put a bigger rig, but rigs on sailboats are calculated regarding RM of the boat and knowing Conq taste for fast boats I am sure that boat has a rig as big as it can have with the present design parameters. To put a bigger rig it would be necessary to increase ballast and for that all boat structure would have to be reinforced resulting in a much more expensive boat. Not a thing one can do on a standard boat with Beneteau.

I agree the boat has a great interior and as test sailors have showed that boat has a very good performance downwind with lots of wind, were ballast is not as important and the big hull form stability and hull design give it an advantage.

Upwind, specially with waves, the boat would be very far away from a Dehler 38 simply because it has not the power to go against them with speed and overcome its superior wave drag. It is upwind that the ballast counts most compared with hull form stability.

I am not saying that the boat is not suited for you, it is a great sailboat regarding what is designed for, but not a performance cruisers. You are used to sail faster than other cruisers on the Opium 39. With this one with light conditions or upwind you will not have such look and all performance cruisers will be faster as well as some modern mass production cruisers of the same size.

That would have no importance to many but it causes me some confusion you consider downgrading performance from the Opium 39 to the Oceanis 38. I would have hated it. Yes the Oceanis 38 has a nicer and bigger interior than the Opium 39 and I understand that your wife would much prefer it but do you prefer it?

Regards

Paulo
I am not writing this because I necessary is contemplating to "downgrade" to the Oceanis, this is more a general discussion continuing from the debate we had earlier regarding Oceanis 38 and B/D-ratio.

I do not think we need to repeat the discussion earlier but remeber the facts I gave about this boat, other similar boats and the Oceanis 40 I owned before. Based on that I still think the Oceanis 38 can carry a bigger rig. The swedish EYOTY-jury memeber testing the boat the same day as I did, totally agreed with me on that and said that Beneteau should do a Jeanneau and offer a performance version with bigger rig.The magazines testing it for the EYOTY now during the autumn seems to think it is a very good performer in higher winds. Should not be that if B/D-ratio would be totally off.

Since I have owned a tweaked Oceanis 40 for 3 years I know pretty well how a boat like this compare to a similar sized performance cruiser and I maintain that to use words as "much slower" or "not at all comparable" is not true. A well sailed boat like this, with good sails and rig components, can stand up very well to boats like Salona 38, Dehler 39 etc in normal family sailing. But not beating into 22 knots of wind in a competition, with mainsails without reefs, for example.

But, as I wrote before, my Oceanis 40 is, among all the boats I have owned over the years, one of the best boats beating into choppy seas if wind is pretty stable so the single rudder is not ower pressed. It was also one of the least noisy inside.

Even if we have minor speed differences between boats mentioned here, I do noth think they are so big that they necessary in all cases have to stand above other aspects in choosing a boat. Of bigger importance I think is the lousy equipment manufacturers keep throwing at the family cruisers. Replace that and you might have a pretty decent boat at a still very good price.

Regards,
Anders

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Re: Oceanis 38 / Dehler 38

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Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
I am not writing this because I necessary is contemplating to "downgrade" to the Oceanis, this is more a general discussion continuing from the debate we had earlier regarding Oceanis 38 and B/D-ratio.

I do not think we need to repeat the discussion earlier but remeber the facts I gave about this boat, other similar boats and the Oceanis 40 I owned before. Based on that I still think the Oceanis 38 can carry a bigger rig. The swedish EYOTY-jury memeber testing the boat the same day as I did, totally agreed with me on that and said that Beneteau should do a Jeanneau and offer a performance version with bigger rig.The magazines testing it for the EYOTY now during the autumn seems to think it is a very good performer in higher winds. Should not be that if B/D-ratio would be totally off.

Since I have owned a tweaked Oceanis 40 for 3 years I know pretty well how a boat like this compare to a similar sized performance cruiser and I maintain that to use words as "much slower" or "not at all comparable" is not true. A well sailed boat like this, with good sails and rig components, can stand up very well to boats like Salona 38, Dehler 39 etc in normal family sailing. But not beating into 22 knots of wind in a competition, with mainsails without reefs, for example.

But, as I wrote before, my Oceanis 40 is, among all the boats I have owned over the years, one of the best boats beating into choppy seas if wind is pretty stable so the single rudder is not ower pressed. It was also one of the least noisy inside.

Even if we have minor speed differences between boats mentioned here, I do noth think they are so big that they necessary in all cases have to stand above other aspects in choosing a boat. Of bigger importance I think is the lousy equipment manufacturers keep throwing at the family cruisers. Replace that and you might have a pretty decent boat at a still very good price.

Regards,
Anders
Anders, I edit a previous post with adding this:

"Anders since you are interested in the Oceanis 38 can't you ask to Benetau a Polar speed or speed chart just to see what is its performance? Benetau hates to give that sort of stuff even if Finot/Conq has it, but if you insist I am sure they will provide you with one."

Nothing like data to be able to compare both boat's performance and to see if that difference is big or not. Do you think you can have this information?

Regards

Paulo


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Re: Interesting Sailboats

I also like the Xp-38 a lot but as with almost all X-yachts, interior lay out always dissapoints me. As in the discussion about the Oceanis 38, other aspects than sailing performance might influence a choise of boat used for both nice sailing and live aboard capabilities. And how do 3 (or even worse a normal family of 4) look at TV comfortably in an XP-38 or Salona-38 interior?

Regards,
Anders
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Re: Oceanis 38 / Dehler 38

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Anders, I edit a previous post with adding this:

"Anders since you are interested in the Oceanis 38 can't you ask to Benetau a Polar speed or speed chart just to see what is its performance? Benetau hates to give that sort of stuff even if Finot/Conq has it, but if you insist I am sure they will provide you with one."

Nothing like data to be able to compare both boat's performance and to see if that difference is big or not. Do you think you can have this information?

Regards

Paulo
I or any interested in the boat could of course ask for that. I wonder if it would say that much since I think, to make this boat interesting, you need to tweak the rig as much as possible. Lower cut, maximized genua, maximized main, perhaps longer boom, perhaps lowered boom, as I did on the Oceanis 40. All blocks changed, main sheet with track on cockpit floor. All these things does not influence polars but some.

Regards,
Anders
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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I also like the Xp-38 a lot but as with almost all X-yachts, interior lay out always dissapoints me. As in the discussion about the Oceanis 38, other aspects than sailing performance might influence a choise of boat used for both nice sailing and live aboard capabilities. And how do 3 (or even worse a normal family of 4) look at TV comfortably in an XP-38 or Salona-38 interior?

Regards,
Anders
I don't know. I have a TV on my boat (come with the boat) but never use it. But when I can I will upgrade the quality of the stereo sound: That's what I like on the sailboat. At home on the winter I see lots of TV but on the boat I have always something better to do, including reading that I don't do much at home. A case of double personality

I agree with you that different cruisers have different needs and a choice of a cruising boat is influenced by the interior but for me (and my wife) the one of the Opium 39, Salona 38 or the new version of the XP 38 is good enough (even if we had a boat with a slightly bigger interior).

I could think of having a boat like the Pogo 12.50 (in what regards interior) if they put doors on it but my wife you not go with it. I certainly can understand that your family has another needs and having the family happy and together is very important to me and I certainly would consider that as very important while choosing a sailboat.

Probably what would satisfy you and your family is a boat that does not exist yet but that for what I have heard will fit your criteria, the one that is going to substitute the Azuree 40, if we took for comparison the new 46.

Regards

Paulo


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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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I don't know. I have a TV on my boat (come with the boat) but never use it. But when I can I will upgrade the quality of the stereo sound: That's what I like on the sailboat. At home on the winter I see lots of TV but on the boat I have always something better to do, including reading that I don't do much at home. A case of double personality

I agree with you that different cruisers have different needs and a choice of a cruising boat is influenced by the interior but for me (and my wife) the one of the Opium 39, Salona 38 or the new version of the XP 38 is good enough (even if we had a boat with a slightly bigger interior).

I could think of having a boat like the Pogo 12.50 (in what regards interior) if they put doors on it but my wife you not go with it. I certainly can understand that your family has another needs and having the family happy and together is very important to me and I certainly would consider that as very important while choosing a sailboat.

Probably what would satisfy you and your family is a boat that does not exist yet but that for what I have heard will fit your criteria, the one that is going to substitute the Azuree 40, if we took for comparison the new 46.

Regards

Paulo
Yes, and the reason for me having the Opium 39 is of course that it by far is best in fullfilling all the different evaluating criterias we put on a boat.

But not all and that boat does not exist and probalby will never do either. But one should always keep an open mind

Also, those criterias change over time. And evaluation goes on in boat development.

As you perhaps remeber we looked closely on the Azuree 40 the last time, we where only one night from signing the ready made contract. I do not regret that we did not and a new version might be interesting again. I am afraid though that they might make the silly misstake many yards do and make i 1203 cm instead of 1199cm, or 403 cm wide instead of 399 cm. Could mean a lot of extra costs - for instance the new greece cruising tax and harbour fees.

We always have had the philosophy that we should make the boat trips as enyoable for the whole family as possible. Now I am lucky and have a family that loves speed and high winds but still we need to have things to do when at anchor. Bikes, kites, windsurfers, inlines, TV are things that make us the only family in our social context that have a 16 year old son that is more than willing to sail all weekends from early april to end of spemteber, and 2 months every summer

Regards,
Anders
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The futur Azuree 40

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Yes, and the reason for me having the Opium 39 is of course that it by far is best in fullfilling all the different evaluating criterias we put on a boat.

But not all and that boat does not exist and probalby will never do either. But one should always keep an open mind

Also, those criterias change over time. And evaluation goes on in boat development.

As you perhaps remeber we looked closely on the Azuree 40 the last time, we where only one night from signing the ready made contract. I do not regret that we did not and a new version might be interesting again. I am afraid though that they might make the silly misstake many yards do and make i 1203 cm instead of 1199cm, or 403 cm wide instead of 399 cm. Could mean a lot of extra costs - for instance the new greece cruising tax and harbour fees.

---

Regards,
Anders
This new boat has nothing to do with the previous one, except the program. Regarding the existent model I really did not like too much the overall design (not referring to the type of boat) but what would put me away was a low AVS and a stability curve with not a good proportion between positive and negative stability. A boat that in my opinion should have more ballast to better those two aspects. A pity since the boat had a great interior.

Of course I only know what the lady from the Turkish shipyard (not dealer) had told me in Dusseldorf: That the 40 would be substituted soon by a Rob Humphreys that is known to make seaworthy boats.

Maybe you get lucky with the dimensions of the new boat. The Actual Azuree 40 has a hull with 11.99m a beam of 4.22m a draft of 2.6m and a B/D ratio of 25%. It is a bit better than on the Oceanis 38 given the bigger draft (same type of keel) but even so, low for a performance boat.

The Azuree 46 has a hull with 13.99, a beam almost identical to the 40fter (4.25m), the same draft, the same type of keel and a B/D ratio of 38%. That is a huge difference even considering that the 40' is proportionally more beamy.

I believe he will follow the same proportionality on the new Azuree 40 so you would have a 11.99m hull, if you are lucky 3.99 beam and also a comparable B/D ratio, one that will make the boat have a decent AVS a nice stability curve and that with a considerable hull form stability will gibe a very stiff and powerful boat. A very different boat regarding the actual one, except on the very good interior, I hope.

Regarding the dimensions you are absolutely right about the importance regarding price in marinas but not regarding the new Greek tax, at least in what regards visiting boats. I have been looking at it because I will sail there this year. In fact it is quite stupid since a boat with 13 meters can actually pay less than a boat with 11.99m that stay there for a month or too (boats between 7 and 12 meters have to pay for a year but boats with more than 12 meters can pay monthly).

Regards

Paulo


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Re: The futur Azuree 40

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This new boat has nothing to do with the previous one, except the program. Regarding the existent model I really did not like too much the overall design (not referring to the type of boat) but what would put me away was a low AVS and a stability curve with not a good proportion between positive and negative stability. A boat that in my opinion should have more ballast to better those two aspects. A pity since the boat had a great interior.

Of course I only know what the lady from the Turkish shipyard (not dealer) had told me in Dusseldorf: That the 40 would be substituted soon by a Rob Humphreys that is known to make seaworthy boats.

Maybe you get lucky with the dimensions of the new boat. The Actual Azuree 40 has a hull with 11.99m a beam of 4.22m a draft of 2.6m and a B/D ratio of 25%. It is a bit better than on the Oceanis 38 given the bigger draft (same type of keel) but even so, low for a performance boat.

The Azuree 46 has a hull with 13.99, a beam almost identical to the 40fter (4.25m), the same draft, the same type of keel and a B/D ratio of 38%. That is a huge difference even considering that the 40' is proportionally more beamy.

I believe he will follow the same proportionality on the new Azuree 40 so you would have a 11.99m hull, if you are lucky 3.99 beam and also a comparable B/D ratio, one that will make the boat have a decent AVS a nice stability curve and that with a considerable hull form stability will gibe a very stiff and powerful boat. A very different boat regarding the actual one, except on the very good interior, I hope.

Regarding the dimensions you are absolutely right about the importance regarding price in marinas but not regarding the new Greek tax, at least in what regards visiting boats. I have been looking at it because I will sail there this year. In fact it is quite stupid since a boat with 13 meters can actually pay less than a boat with 11.99m that stay there for a month or too (boats between 7 and 12 meters have to pay for a year but boats with more than 12 meters can pay monthly).

Regards

Paulo
You have no information when Azzuree will release the new 40 footer?

Regards
Anders
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