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  #6331  
Old 02-28-2014
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The Mast walk:

I am still figuring out about the best way to go to the top of my mast alone. I am big and heavy and not properly young.

Well, that's an option: it looks easy, at least for Alex Thomson



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  #6332  
Old 02-28-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by bljones View Post
The Seezunge C is a beautiful catboat. Check out the bar!

Seezunge C | VA Yachtdesign[/url]
You will find also some very beautiful and fast classic cruisers. Marc-Olivier seems to be a very versatile boat architect.
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  #6333  
Old 03-01-2014
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Re: Oceanis 38 / Dehler 38

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
But in fact you are saying that, I mean that the Oceanis 38 has almost the speed of a performance cruiser when you are saying that it will not be much slower than the Dehler 38, that one a performance cruiser.

Fact is that on the comparative test (Voile magazine) with all the boats of the water at the same time and weak to medium light wind the "cheap" Varianta 37 (an older Hanse hull) showed to be much faster than the Oceanis 38 and of course, the Dehler 38 much faster than the Varianta 37, even if the comparison is not fair since the Varaianta 37, like the Oceanis 37 is a family cruiser (main market) while the Dehler 38 is a performance cruiser.

I doubt it but maybe someone has the idea of racing the Oceanis 38 and then we can have the rating files where the differences will be clear. If nobody would take an Oceanis 38 for racing....that would be significant too, meaning it is not that fast

Regards

Paulo
As said before and repeating again, It is always much easier to tune and increase a too small or "cheap" rig than a bad hull and keel. So, since I think the Oceanis 38 is such a good looking boat, both externally and especially internally, it is nice to read that the basics seems in place and adequately designed for good performance.

My own guess why it seems to perform good, at least when the small rig is not hampering it, is that Beneteau did not go down the Elan road, trying to make a planing performance cruiser, or cruiser and not going the full "Pogo" distance.

Using modern design input including double rudders but realising that a boat like this is not bought as a cruiser racer or for believing it will plane with cruising loads might perhaps be an explanation.

I personally would rather buy the Oceanis 38 and fix the rig instead of buying the comparatively traditionally designed Dehler with its missing hull windows. Or let's say it like this, do not show the Oceanis interior to your wife if you prefer another boat

On the other hand, a Dehler 38 with the Oceanis modern interior and hull windows and a super interesting package for our taste would be created. Partly it is already on the market but far too expensive. I am talking about the Solaris One 37.

Anders

Last edited by JAndersB; 03-01-2014 at 02:09 AM.
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  #6334  
Old 03-01-2014
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Hd 36

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Originally Posted by bpgoll View Post
You will find also some very beautiful and fast classic cruisers. Marc-Olivier seems to be a very versatile boat architect.
Yes, Marc-Oliver von Ahlen is a very versatile Na and a very good one.

I have posted year several of his boats that goes from racers to classic modern boats:

The Sirius 310, 35 and the new 40, the Sailart 22, the SQ 25 all deserved long posts. I believe I had also posted about the Tide series but not about this beauty, the HD 36:





The boat is built by HD, wood specialists, the ones that also build that cat rig design, the Sole. It is very light (3670kg) has a lot of sail area (52m2 with jib) and I am sure it will be a delightful boat to own and sail.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 03-01-2014 at 06:33 AM.
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  #6335  
Old 03-01-2014
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Oceanis 38 / Dehler 38

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Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
As said before and repeating again, It is always much easier to tune and increase a too small or "cheap" rig than a bad hull and keel. So, since I think the Oceanis 38 is such a good looking boat, both externally and especially internally, it is nice to read that the basics seems in place and adequately designed for good performance.
...
I personally would rather buy the Oceanis 38 and fix the rig instead of buying the comparatively traditionally designed Dehler with its missing hull windows. Or let's say it like this, do not show the Oceanis interior to your wife if you prefer another boat

On the other hand, a Dehler 38 with the Oceanis modern interior and hull windows and a super interesting package for our taste would be created. Partly it is already on the market but far too expensive. I am talking about the Solaris One 37.

Anders
Anders, the Solaris 37 has not the same type of hull of the Oceanis 38 but the type of hull of a Salona 38 or XP 38. Both have a far superior sailing performance regarding the Solaris 37. The Solaris 37 has a good sailing performance (better than the Oceanis 38, specially upwind) and a very good quality interior. A delightful boat, I agree, but not with a versatile interior like the Oceanis.

Regarding increasing performance on a hull like the Oceanis 38 I had already talked about this with you and that's when I talked about the boat needing to have a bigger B/D ratio for that.

As you know the boat has a smallish rig and to increase performance you would have to put a bigger rig, but rigs on sailboats are calculated regarding RM of the boat and knowing Conq taste for fast boats I am sure that boat has a rig as big as it can have with the present design parameters. To put a bigger rig it would be necessary to increase ballast and for that all boat structure would have to be reinforced resulting in a much more expensive boat. Not a thing one can do on a standard boat with Beneteau.

I agree the boat has a great interior and as test sailors have showed that boat has a very good performance downwind with lots of wind, were ballast is not as important and the big hull form stability and hull design give it an advantage.

Upwind, specially with waves, the boat would be very far away from a Dehler 38 simply because it has not the power to go against them with speed and overcome its superior wave drag. It is upwind that the ballast counts most compared with hull form stability.

I am not saying that the boat is not suited for you, it is a great sailboat regarding what is designed for, but not a performance cruisers. You are used to sail faster than other cruisers on the Opium 39. With this one with light conditions or upwind you will not have such look and all performance cruisers will be faster as well as some modern mass production cruisers of the same size.

That would have no importance to many but it causes me some confusion you consider downgrading performance from the Opium 39 to the Oceanis 38. I would have hated it. Yes the Oceanis 38 has a nicer and bigger interior than the Opium 39 and I understand that your wife would much prefer it but do you prefer it?

Anders since you are interested in the Oceanis 38 can't you ask to Benetau a Polar speed or speed chart just to see what is its performance? Benetau hates to give that sort of stuff even if Finot/Conq has it, but if you insist I am sure they will provide you with one.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 03-01-2014 at 07:49 AM.
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  #6336  
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Xp 38 2 cabin layout.

When the XP 38 come on the market just with one 3 cabin version layout and with a head in the middle of the boat (giving it a smallish saloon) I was quite pissed. A 3 cabin layout didn't make much sense and the way it was designed was poor, making for a not nice interior. At the time I said that the Salona 38 had a much nicer interior space.

Then, some time ago they come up with a 2 cabin layout (finally) and I said it here that it just looked nice but nothing as to be inside the boat to judge that and that's what I have done on the last Dusseldorf boat show. And yes the boat has improved hugely in what regards interior space an even design quality.

Very nice indeed. If I had no money limitations and would chose one 38fter for the type of sailing I do, it would be this one and 38ft is a very nice size for sailing solo and this one is a very fast sailboat. But I really would need a lot of money because the X-yachts high quality does not come cheap.

That's what I mean:



















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Last edited by PCP; 03-01-2014 at 07:38 AM.
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  #6337  
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Re: Oceanis 38 / Dehler 38

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Anders, the Solaris 37 has not the same type of hull of the Oceanis 38 but the type of hull of a Salona 38 or XP 38. Both have a far superior sailing performance regarding the Solaris 37. The Solaris 37 has a good sailing performance (better than the Oceanis 38, specially upwind) and a very good quality interior. A delightful boat, I agree, but not with a versatile interior like the Oceanis.

Regarding increasing performance on a hull like the Oceanis 38 I had already talked about this with you and that's when I talked about the boat needing to have a bigger B/D ratio for that.

As you know the boat has a smallish rig and to increase performance you would have to put a bigger rig, but rigs on sailboats are calculated regarding RM of the boat and knowing Conq taste for fast boats I am sure that boat has a rig as big as it can have with the present design parameters. To put a bigger rig it would be necessary to increase ballast and for that all boat structure would have to be reinforced resulting in a much more expensive boat. Not a thing one can do on a standard boat with Beneteau.

I agree the boat has a great interior and as test sailors have showed that boat has a very good performance downwind with lots of wind, were ballast is not as important and the big hull form stability and hull design give it an advantage.

Upwind, specially with waves, the boat would be very far away from a Dehler 38 simply because it has not the power to go against them with speed and overcome its superior wave drag. It is upwind that the ballast counts most compared with hull form stability.

I am not saying that the boat is not suited for you, it is a great sailboat regarding what is designed for, but not a performance cruisers. You are used to sail faster than other cruisers on the Opium 39. With this one with light conditions or upwind you will not have such look and all performance cruisers will be faster as well as some modern mass production cruisers of the same size.

That would have no importance to many but it causes me some confusion you consider downgrading performance from the Opium 39 to the Oceanis 38. I would have hated it. Yes the Oceanis 38 has a nicer and bigger interior than the Opium 39 and I understand that your wife would much prefer it but do you prefer it?

Regards

Paulo
I am not writing this because I necessary is contemplating to "downgrade" to the Oceanis, this is more a general discussion continuing from the debate we had earlier regarding Oceanis 38 and B/D-ratio.

I do not think we need to repeat the discussion earlier but remeber the facts I gave about this boat, other similar boats and the Oceanis 40 I owned before. Based on that I still think the Oceanis 38 can carry a bigger rig. The swedish EYOTY-jury memeber testing the boat the same day as I did, totally agreed with me on that and said that Beneteau should do a Jeanneau and offer a performance version with bigger rig.The magazines testing it for the EYOTY now during the autumn seems to think it is a very good performer in higher winds. Should not be that if B/D-ratio would be totally off.

Since I have owned a tweaked Oceanis 40 for 3 years I know pretty well how a boat like this compare to a similar sized performance cruiser and I maintain that to use words as "much slower" or "not at all comparable" is not true. A well sailed boat like this, with good sails and rig components, can stand up very well to boats like Salona 38, Dehler 39 etc in normal family sailing. But not beating into 22 knots of wind in a competition, with mainsails without reefs, for example.

But, as I wrote before, my Oceanis 40 is, among all the boats I have owned over the years, one of the best boats beating into choppy seas if wind is pretty stable so the single rudder is not ower pressed. It was also one of the least noisy inside.

Even if we have minor speed differences between boats mentioned here, I do noth think they are so big that they necessary in all cases have to stand above other aspects in choosing a boat. Of bigger importance I think is the lousy equipment manufacturers keep throwing at the family cruisers. Replace that and you might have a pretty decent boat at a still very good price.

Regards,
Anders

Last edited by JAndersB; 03-01-2014 at 07:51 AM.
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  #6338  
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Re: Oceanis 38 / Dehler 38

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Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
I am not writing this because I necessary is contemplating to "downgrade" to the Oceanis, this is more a general discussion continuing from the debate we had earlier regarding Oceanis 38 and B/D-ratio.

I do not think we need to repeat the discussion earlier but remeber the facts I gave about this boat, other similar boats and the Oceanis 40 I owned before. Based on that I still think the Oceanis 38 can carry a bigger rig. The swedish EYOTY-jury memeber testing the boat the same day as I did, totally agreed with me on that and said that Beneteau should do a Jeanneau and offer a performance version with bigger rig.The magazines testing it for the EYOTY now during the autumn seems to think it is a very good performer in higher winds. Should not be that if B/D-ratio would be totally off.

Since I have owned a tweaked Oceanis 40 for 3 years I know pretty well how a boat like this compare to a similar sized performance cruiser and I maintain that to use words as "much slower" or "not at all comparable" is not true. A well sailed boat like this, with good sails and rig components, can stand up very well to boats like Salona 38, Dehler 39 etc in normal family sailing. But not beating into 22 knots of wind in a competition, with mainsails without reefs, for example.

But, as I wrote before, my Oceanis 40 is, among all the boats I have owned over the years, one of the best boats beating into choppy seas if wind is pretty stable so the single rudder is not ower pressed. It was also one of the least noisy inside.

Even if we have minor speed differences between boats mentioned here, I do noth think they are so big that they necessary in all cases have to stand above other aspects in choosing a boat. Of bigger importance I think is the lousy equipment manufacturers keep throwing at the family cruisers. Replace that and you might have a pretty decent boat at a still very good price.

Regards,
Anders
Anders, I edit a previous post with adding this:

"Anders since you are interested in the Oceanis 38 can't you ask to Benetau a Polar speed or speed chart just to see what is its performance? Benetau hates to give that sort of stuff even if Finot/Conq has it, but if you insist I am sure they will provide you with one."

Nothing like data to be able to compare both boat's performance and to see if that difference is big or not. Do you think you can have this information?

Regards

Paulo
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  #6339  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

I also like the Xp-38 a lot but as with almost all X-yachts, interior lay out always dissapoints me. As in the discussion about the Oceanis 38, other aspects than sailing performance might influence a choise of boat used for both nice sailing and live aboard capabilities. And how do 3 (or even worse a normal family of 4) look at TV comfortably in an XP-38 or Salona-38 interior?

Regards,
Anders
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Re: Oceanis 38 / Dehler 38

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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Anders, I edit a previous post with adding this:

"Anders since you are interested in the Oceanis 38 can't you ask to Benetau a Polar speed or speed chart just to see what is its performance? Benetau hates to give that sort of stuff even if Finot/Conq has it, but if you insist I am sure they will provide you with one."

Nothing like data to be able to compare both boat's performance and to see if that difference is big or not. Do you think you can have this information?

Regards

Paulo
I or any interested in the boat could of course ask for that. I wonder if it would say that much since I think, to make this boat interesting, you need to tweak the rig as much as possible. Lower cut, maximized genua, maximized main, perhaps longer boom, perhaps lowered boom, as I did on the Oceanis 40. All blocks changed, main sheet with track on cockpit floor. All these things does not influence polars but some.

Regards,
Anders
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