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post #6341 of 6763 Old 03-02-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Wow Paulo! I think it's time for you to relax.
I was remarking that the original comment seemed very emphatic and specific about the boat under review at the time. I could see no ambiguity in it. That's all. No need to get all personal and smarmy.

I visit this thread more than any other thread. I enjoy this thread. I like to see boats that I would probably not get to see in US publications.
So:
"I guess your hate for the success of this thread makes you blind."
Is just another snide personal attack.

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post #6342 of 6763 Old 03-02-2014 Thread Starter
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Viko 30s

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjung View Post
Yacht was not impressed.
"Not much more than pretty pretend"
Viko S22: Nicht viel mehr als schöner Schein - Yachten + Jollen*|*YACHT.DE
"Sobering results"
Kleinkreuzertest: Viko S22: ernüchternde Ergebnisse - Service*|*YACHT.DE
Not only a poor performer, but also plenty to complain about in what regards finish quality and technical solutions. The cabin also flooded during a heeling test.
You seem not to have understood but thanks for your contribution that reinforces what I have said: Robelz was talking about a test with another Viko not the Viko 30s. The Same magazine that tested that Viko 22 says that the Viko 30s is a completely different boat and that they were surprised with it.

What yacht de says about the Viko 30s compared with the previous line of fat Vikos is this:

"At the stand of the Polish shipyard, a surprise awaits visitors: beautiful lines instead of the current maximum space efficiency. You have to look twice to realize that it really is a new Viko, because the sailboats of the Polish shipyard have been noticed by compromise sailing regarding interior space.They normally have a big freeboard: The Vikos belong to the type of boats that are currently being built in the small cruiser segment and the best. The Poles have their market share in Germany by offering boats not compromised by a reasonable price.

The Viko 30S is significantly less voluminous than the previous models, is designed with harmonious deck lines and it looks absolutely chic.

Regarding the price, the Poles want to score: 29.900 euros for a 31-foot sailboat, is very good. That would be actually sensational. So what's going on? Germany importer André explains the design change of paradigm: "The shipyard plans to establish a second line, so the change on style. The 30S is a design by the Italian Sergio Lupoli, who also works for Comar Yachts."

Strictly speaking, the Viko 30S is the same design as the Comet 31s, but it has been modified in many details of Viko: "The shipyard has invested heavily in the future and a 35s, 40s and even 50s will follow." The previous old type of small voluminous boats will continue to be produced in parallel as a second line."


Viko Yachts: Hanseboot-Premiere VIII: Viko 30S - Yachten + Jollen*|*YACHT.DE

Please Robelz put an end to this and tell us to what Viko's boat test you were referring (30s?) when you said this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by robelz View Post
Well, YACHT magazine called the VIKO the worst boat they've ever tested...
The way you said it, after a post about the Viko 30s, it gives the idea you were referring to a test on that boat and not a previous test on one of the fat boats, that they had already said it is a completely different line, being the Viko 30s the first of a new series.

Regards

Paulo


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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
...
So:
"I guess your hate for the success of this thread makes you blind."
Is just another snide personal attack.
No Bob, I don't do personal attacks.

It means what it means: that if you had looked to the Viko 30s design (lots of information about it) before posting you would have noticed (at least I hope so) that it is a great and fast design for a 30ft cruiser and that it would make no sense that a reputable magazine with great testers and great knowledge about modern sailboats and designs, would have said that the Viko 30s was the worst boat they've ever tested. It just does not make sense regarding a great design and I believe if you were note here to denigrate this thread (or me), would have noticed that for sure.

Regards

Paulo


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post #6344 of 6763 Old 03-02-2014 Thread Starter
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Wally Saudade going fast

A wally with a Portuguese name and one of those words that is pretty untranslatable in other languages and marks one of the feelings of the Portuguese as a culture.

Saudade is truly a beautiful boat as most Wally are, a 145ft Tripp Design for the NA, a Eidsgaard Design for the exterior and interior. It features a torpedo lifting keel to have an accessible draft without hurting sail performance.

































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post #6345 of 6763 Old 03-02-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Paulo:
I'm going to have to disagree with you on "personal attacks". Your's are not direct but they are there as subtle insinuations and sometimes less than subtle. To deny that is disingenuous. But I don't mind. I'm confident and I feel no need to be defensive. This is just boat talk to me and I'm not going to get all upset about it. I like a good hearty debate about naval architecture. It's a way to learn.

As for "hating" the thread, why don't you count how many time I have hit the 'like button". I think it tells a different tale from the tale you would like others to believe. I would guess that I hit "like" more or as much as anyone here. There is much design work I admire here.

No need to get your knickers in a twist if I object to something. I'm just one voice here.

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post #6346 of 6763 Old 03-02-2014 Thread Starter
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Bob, all this posts of yours were made in a week. Only a blind man would not see a pattern.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Yes, your holyness. Once again you are so right.
I am so sorry to have an opinion.
Regards,
Bob P.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
"That does not mean that looking at a particular and localized period of time the opposite is not also true, with particular relevance some decades ago, meaning that some sailboat, particularly, cruiser-racer designs (that are always influenced in some extent by the existent rating), were heavily influenced by the distortions created by rating, trying to take the better deal out of it. "

Huh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Both of those cabin trunks are not very good looking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Vimey is correct.
Perhaps this 3D model was prepared just a a sales tool, i.e. it's a pretty picture.
I have done that too.
But the type of 3D modeling I prefer can be used as a file for CNC cutting so it has to be dead acurate. This is a builder's tool and not just a sales tool.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Paulo:
I work with a team of specialists. I have an engineer, a fellow who is an expert at deck layouts and electronics and Jody Culbertson III an expert in 3D modelling. Each member of the team is given his asignment. Jody happens to be very good with 3D. ….

Now you can go on getting all upset anytime I post but I can assure you I am not going away. Time for you to HTFU.
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
"That's interesting but vague."
You are funny Paulo. How can calling a boat "the worst boat they have ever tested" be vague? It seem extremely definitive to me, anything but "vague".
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Wow Paulo! I think it's time for you to relax.
I was remarking that the original comment seemed very emphatic and specific about the boat under review at the time. I could see no ambiguity in it. That's all. No need to get all personal and smarmy.
I visit this thread more than any other thread. I enjoy this thread. I like to see boats that I would probably not get to see in US publications.
So:
"I guess your hate for the success of this thread makes you blind."
Is just another snide personal attack.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Paulo:
I'm going to have to disagree with you on "personal attacks". Your's are not direct but they are there as subtle insinuations and sometimes less than subtle. To deny that is disingenuous. But I don't mind. I'm confident and I feel no need to be defensive. This is just boat talk to me and I'm not going to get all upset about it. I like a good hearty debate about naval architecture. It's a way to learn.

As for "hating" the thread, why don't you count how many time I have hit the 'like button". I think it tells a different tale from the tale you would like others to believe. I would guess that I hit "like" more or as much as anyone here. There is much design work I admire here.
No need to get your knickers in a twist if I object to something. I'm just one voice here.

Nobody found the cabins designed by that NA particularly ugly, everybody understood what I wanted to say about rating and hull design and a simple look to that boat would make you understand that it was ridiculous that a credible boat magazine had said that it was the worse boat they ever tested. Yes Robelz was vague and I explained why, asking him to be more specific about what boat and model that statement refers too. Obviously that statement was not referred about the boat I was talking about.

You seem to think that this thread is about you and that what I say is kind of directed to you. It is not. I can’t care less about what you think about it. I am a direct person and I say what I think. I am not rude (or at least I try) and I don’t do personal attacks.

Regarding the likes, it is obvious that many like this thread otherwise it would not attract thousands of visitors each day. The fact that you insist into giving more “likes” than everybody else is annoying, deliberate and makes no sense. Please stop with that and see if you can moderate your contribution to a more positive level, actually posting about interesting contemporary boats or features instead of keeping with that attitude whose purpose is clear.

Many contribute with interesting post to this thread. You are surely the one that has more meaningless or offensive posts and never contributed with nothing new and interesting to it.

You limit yourself to discuss what I say. Nothing wrong with that, but it is certainly very little and much less than many other contributors that actually make with me this thread.

Regards

Paulo
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post #6347 of 6763 Old 03-02-2014
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Re: Viko 30s

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
You seem not to have understood but ... blah blah blah....
.......that they had already said it is a completely different line, being the Viko 30s the first of a new series.

Regards

Paulo
No, Paulo, I understood just fine, and my post was not reinforcing your comments, quite the contrary. Maybe YOU do not understand !? I was referring to, as the subject line clearly states, the Viko S22, designed by Sergio Lupoli (same designer as the S30 ), the FIRST of a new line.
For accuracy's sake, the article you quoted never mentions that the S30 is a completely different boat than the S22, as you claim. It mentions, however, that the S30 is different from the previous high freeboard, voluminous line of boats (which will remain in production ), and presents a second line of production designed by Sergio Lupoli, just as the S22, the first of the line, I humbly posted about.
The same designer, the same builder, the same building, the same line of production...
Also mentioned about the S30: The price does not include an engine, and Yacht advises checking the options sheet, as the boat is very bare compared to others in its class.
I guess we will find out the details, when they actually sail the S30. Maybe she will pass the heeling test without taking on water, stay tuned...
I will however grant, that she is a decent looking boat.
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post #6348 of 6763 Old 03-02-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Boy Paulo:
You spend a lot of energy on this. You need to chill. I have been posting here for weeks. It goes back to the "chines" thread. Weeks.

Who is this "blind man" you speak of? Are you calling names?

"The fact that you insist into giving more “likes” than everybody else is annoying, deliberate and makes no sense. Please stop with that and see if you can moderate your contribution to a more positive level, actually posting about interesting contemporary boats or features instead of keeping with that attitude whose purpose is clear."

No Paulo. Not a chance. I will continue to post as I like and I really don't care what you think of my posts. You react. You react the way you choose to react. Don't dream of telling me what I can do. I simply hit the "like" button when I like what has been posted. Simple as that. It is not meant to be annoying. But you are so easily annoyed.

"You seem to think that this thread is about you "
That is a very weird statement coming from you.

I thought this thread was about boats?
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post #6349 of 6763 Old 03-02-2014 Thread Starter
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Owen and Clarke and the Wally cento class.

Owen and Clarke helped to create the class but his design did not find a client yet. I liked it a lot as I have appreciated the studies (that I will share here) that lead to the choice of that hull shape that is basically the same used by the other wally cento but beamier. The wally cento are wally cruisers more oriented for performance and have racing as an important part of their design program.

With time we would have a look at the difference between these boats in what regards hull design, but they are not big. This seems to be the best hull shape for this size and boat characteristics (with some differences in beam) that have as basis a top performance cruiser, not a full racer.

The Owen and Clarke wally cento:







Fascinating this study. I hope someone will have the boat built to see if the VPP predictions are close to reality and if this beamier boat (than the other wally cento) is really faster in more conditions than the existent wally cento fleet.

The study:

Having worked on the design of the new Cento since the rule's inception it is clear that because of her overall length and high sail area displacement ratio the Cento is a very different yacht to previous Wallys. She is very fast and this effectively draws the apparant wind to forward of the beam in almost all conditions. Although Wally are classifying her as racer-cruiser her performance potential because of her combination of waterline length and displacement are clear. ....

It’s all very well having a light boat with a large sail area to provide performance, but the yacht has to have the stability to match or one will be be sailing with mainsail twisted/reefed and be unable to take advantage of the power available.

At the other end of the scale, a maximum beam hull will be inefficient unless its form stability is being used a large percentage of the time. Just how will the Wally Cento’s sail since they don’t have water ballast and when will they reach maximum heel and at what wind speed? One of our Wally Cento designs has been computer modelled with the maximum sail permitted sail area and the results are shown below. In terms of performance the Wally Cento is sailing in displacement mode in the greyed out area and exceeding her hull speed elsewhere..




The table below illustrates just how often the apparent wind is forward of the beam, the inevitable conclusion here is that the Wally Cento is ‘hungry’ for stability even off the wind when designed with the maximum sail area and at the minimum displacement.

What this also means is that because the wind is drawn forward to such an extent this stability is in use more often than heavier displacement or shorter waterline yachts – the kind of yachts the IRC rule was designed for. This is one of the reasons we believe why IRC treats lighter, more powerful designs more leniently after 60’.The stability that is penalized is effective for a higher % percentage of the time, as is the light displacement because the yachts are also effectively sailing outside their displacement mode for a greater % of the time.




The performance over several different inshore courses have been evaluated in a range of conditions for two boats, one of maximum beam and one of minimum beam. For this exercise both yachts had the same sail area and displacement. The relative speed of the two designs is illustrated in the table below where speed differences in seconds per mile are shown at a range of wind angles and wind speeds. The numbers in red indicate where the wider boat is slower and the black where the wider boat is faster.



It seems clear from the numbers that we have seen that the Owen Clarke Wally Cento will be an exciting, exhilarating boat to sail with performance potential well in excess of the current Wally fleet. Fully powered up in eight knots of wind even without a Code 0, the boat will have no fear of light airs and with twin rudder control fast reaching and running in higher speeds will be controllable to an extent unheard of on its single-rudder predecessors.

Just as twin rudder designs were a revelation to most sailors in the first Volvo 70 VOR when the single rudder Farr designs were relegated to ‘also rans,’ the advantages of this type of yacht can be experienced when sailing as part of the Wally fleet or in other races against other IRC designs.

When combined with the latest sail handling techniques, equipment and design, the sail area of the new rigs will be easier than ever to harness and control. Developments in the grand prix and short-handed racing world in terms of top down furling spinnakers and especially furling code sails/gennakers will power the yacht at the high apparent wind angles it will be sailing at most of the time.

Wally have elected to place the Cento firrmly in the racing division with a speed potential far higher than their designs of the past. A fresh approach is called for to take advantage of the situation. Indeed the Cento falls squarely at the high performance end of yacht design, an area that Owen Clarke Design excel in. In partnership with Design Unlimited and KandK Superyachts we have a team that has the capabilities to produce a very special as well as a winning yacht.


Wally Cento - IRC High Performance Superyacht : Owen Clarke Design - Yacht Design and Naval Architects


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Viko 30s, the first of a new series, a change in paradigm.

This is boring. This is all about interpretation and about English and logic. I hope this settles the matter because what have been said on that article from Yacht is very clear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjung View Post
No, Paulo, I understood just fine, and my post was not reinforcing your comments, quite the contrary. Maybe YOU do not understand !? I was referring to, as the subject line clearly states, the Viko S22, designed by Sergio Lupoli (same designer as the S30 ), the FIRST of a new line.....
Maybe you don't know but it is not the designer that chose the type of boat that he is going to make for a shipyard. It is the shipyard that tells the designer what kind of boat they want. The fact that the designer of the 22 is the same of the 30 does not mean they are the same type of boat. The freeboard of the 22 is just huge as it is commented on the Yacht de article about the Viko 30s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjung View Post
For accuracy's sake, the article you quoted never mentions that the S30 is a completely different boat than the S22, as you claim. It mentions, however, that the S30 is different from the previous high freeboard, voluminous line of boats (which will remain in production ).... the Viko S22...the FIRST of a new line.
Are you kidding? or maybe you don't know that the Viko 30s is a more recent model than the 22:

"At the stand of the Polish shipyard, a surprise awaits visitors: beautiful lines instead of the current maximum space efficiency. You have to look twice to realize that it really is a new Viko, because the sailboats of the Polish shipyard have been noticed by compromise sailing regarding interior space.They normally have a big freeboard: ....

"The Viko 30S is significantly less voluminous than the previous models, it is designed with harmonious deck lines and it looks absolutely chic.

.. So what's going on? Germany importer André explains the design change of paradigm: "The shipyard plans to establish a second line, so the change on style...The shipyard has invested heavily in the future and a 35s, 40s and even 50s will follow." The previous old type of small voluminous boats will continue to be produced in parallel as a second line."


It cannot be more clear: The previous boats have all a big freeboard, including the 22, you just need to look at it below:



this one is different, in the words of Yacht.de, a surprise, dificult to identify with the previous boats (including the 22) significantly less voluminous with beautiful lines, looking chick.

On the words of the German importer quoted by Yacht it is said: "The shipyard plans to establish a second line, so the change on style" that is pretty clear. That is a plan not something that had happened already with the 22 (that is one of the voluminous high freeboard boats) and continued with the 30s but something that happened now, not in the past and then he tells about the new boats from that new series: the 30s, a 35, a 40 and even a 50, that's why they talk of a change of paradigm with the 30, not something that had happened in the past.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjung View Post
and presents a second line of production designed by Sergio Lupoli, just as the S22, the first of the line, I humbly posted about.
The same designer, the same builder, the same building, the same line of production...
....
What you say, regarding the 22 to be the first of a line that includes the 30 and the bigger boats has no support in what had been said. Quite the contrary the 30s is presented as a surprise, a change of paradigm, a boat much less voluminous then all previous boats and the beginning of a new series.

Viko Yachts: Hanseboot-Premiere VIII: Viko 30S - Yachten + Jollen*|*YACHT.DE

Regards

Paulo


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Last edited by PCP; 03-02-2014 at 06:54 PM.
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