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  #6351  
Old 03-02-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

"That's interesting but vague."
You are funny Paulo. How can calling a boat "the worst boat they have ever tested" be vague? It seem extremely definitive to me, anything but "vague".
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  #6352  
Old 03-02-2014
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Viko 30s

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
"That's interesting but vague."
You are funny Paulo. How can calling a boat "the worst boat they have ever tested" be vague? It seem extremely definitive to me, anything but "vague".
You are very funny. Of course you are absolutely sure that comment was said referring the Viko 30s and not about one of the previous fat models

Want a bet that Robelz read that referring to a test to one of the older boats of the other line? The ones that Yacht de refers as:"been noticed by compromise sailing regarding interior space", opposed to this one that they consider with " beautiful lines instead of the current maximum space efficiency", probably the Viko 25 that has they had refereed is quite the opposite of this boat.

I hoped more from you. It is obvious that this is a very well designed boat and you should know that it has to sail well, independently of the build quality that looked quite normal to me in Dusseldorf.

I guess your hate for the success of this thread makes you blind. See if you can better your contribution posting some cutting edge contemporary interesting sailboats instead of trying to contradict everything I say.

Regards

Paulo
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  #6353  
Old 03-02-2014
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Viko S22

Yacht was not impressed.
"Not much more than pretty pretend"
Viko S22: Nicht viel mehr als schöner Schein - Yachten + Jollen*|*YACHT.DE
"Sobering results"
Kleinkreuzertest: Viko S22: ernüchternde Ergebnisse - Service*|*YACHT.DE
Not only a poor performer, but also plenty to complain about in what regards finish quality and technical solutions. The cabin also flooded during a heeling test.
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  #6354  
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Marc-Oliver von Ahlen and evolution in contemporary hull design.

Under the perspective of overall efficiency regarding a modern hull and its continuous evolution towards a better performance and again about Marc-Oliver von Ahlen designs, it is very interesting to compare that beautiful classic coastal cruiser recent design that I have posted recently, this one:



With an older one by the same NA and look at the differences in what regards that evolution in what regards hull efficiency:



Both have already modern efficient keels and rudders and being classic boats the hull has to be compromised in what regards pure efficiency since the aesthetic factor is a major one here but as we can see, without compromising the looks the hull of the last design (first picture) is a more efficient one, more in line with what that hull would have been if the aesthetic factor was not a major one.

We can see also that the overall looks were not compromised:



That's what makes a great design

In what regards hulls not compromised by that type of factors and that therefore are designed mostly with performance in mind we can look at two designs from the same NA separated by some years and with about the same program (performance cruisers) and look at the hull evolution towards an overall better sailing performance.

Look at the differences:







And that is on line with the last year's evolution as it can be seen on the work of all top Nas: Both boats have modern rudders and keels but we can see that the bulb on the last boat is a more elongated one and that the last boat has a two rudders set-up with two wheels (only one on the previous boat).

We can also see that the 60ft is proportionally slightly beamier and most of all has the beam pulled aft. That difference in beam is relevant since the last one is a bigger boat and bigger boats are normally proportionally less beamier than smaller ones.

Aesthetically the boat also features the modern tendency for very low cabins (as we could saw here on many boats, including the Wally, or the new big Hanse) being the illumination (lot's of it) made through port hulls or Zenithal.

All these designs are not very separated in time, a decade at most and we can see clearly the design evolution. Decidedly a very interesting Na, Marc-Oliver von Ahlen and one that follows closely contemporary design evolution that it is faster now than never before.
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  #6355  
Old 03-02-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Wow Paulo! I think it's time for you to relax.
I was remarking that the original comment seemed very emphatic and specific about the boat under review at the time. I could see no ambiguity in it. That's all. No need to get all personal and smarmy.

I visit this thread more than any other thread. I enjoy this thread. I like to see boats that I would probably not get to see in US publications.
So:
"I guess your hate for the success of this thread makes you blind."
Is just another snide personal attack.
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  #6356  
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Viko 30s

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjung View Post
Yacht was not impressed.
"Not much more than pretty pretend"
Viko S22: Nicht viel mehr als schöner Schein - Yachten + Jollen*|*YACHT.DE
"Sobering results"
Kleinkreuzertest: Viko S22: ernüchternde Ergebnisse - Service*|*YACHT.DE
Not only a poor performer, but also plenty to complain about in what regards finish quality and technical solutions. The cabin also flooded during a heeling test.
You seem not to have understood but thanks for your contribution that reinforces what I have said: Robelz was talking about a test with another Viko not the Viko 30s. The Same magazine that tested that Viko 22 says that the Viko 30s is a completely different boat and that they were surprised with it.

What yacht de says about the Viko 30s compared with the previous line of fat Vikos is this:

"At the stand of the Polish shipyard, a surprise awaits visitors: beautiful lines instead of the current maximum space efficiency. You have to look twice to realize that it really is a new Viko, because the sailboats of the Polish shipyard have been noticed by compromise sailing regarding interior space.They normally have a big freeboard: The Vikos belong to the type of boats that are currently being built in the small cruiser segment and the best. The Poles have their market share in Germany by offering boats not compromised by a reasonable price.

The Viko 30S is significantly less voluminous than the previous models, is designed with harmonious deck lines and it looks absolutely chic.

Regarding the price, the Poles want to score: 29.900 euros for a 31-foot sailboat, is very good. That would be actually sensational. So what's going on? Germany importer André explains the design change of paradigm: "The shipyard plans to establish a second line, so the change on style. The 30S is a design by the Italian Sergio Lupoli, who also works for Comar Yachts."

Strictly speaking, the Viko 30S is the same design as the Comet 31s, but it has been modified in many details of Viko: "The shipyard has invested heavily in the future and a 35s, 40s and even 50s will follow." The previous old type of small voluminous boats will continue to be produced in parallel as a second line."


Viko Yachts: Hanseboot-Premiere VIII: Viko 30S - Yachten + Jollen*|*YACHT.DE

Please Robelz put an end to this and tell us to what Viko's boat test you were referring (30s?) when you said this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by robelz View Post
Well, YACHT magazine called the VIKO the worst boat they've ever tested...
The way you said it, after a post about the Viko 30s, it gives the idea you were referring to a test on that boat and not a previous test on one of the fat boats, that they had already said it is a completely different line, being the Viko 30s the first of a new series.

Regards

Paulo
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
...
So:
"I guess your hate for the success of this thread makes you blind."
Is just another snide personal attack.
No Bob, I don't do personal attacks.

It means what it means: that if you had looked to the Viko 30s design (lots of information about it) before posting you would have noticed (at least I hope so) that it is a great and fast design for a 30ft cruiser and that it would make no sense that a reputable magazine with great testers and great knowledge about modern sailboats and designs, would have said that the Viko 30s was the worst boat they've ever tested. It just does not make sense regarding a great design and I believe if you were note here to denigrate this thread (or me), would have noticed that for sure.

Regards

Paulo
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  #6358  
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Wally Saudade going fast

A wally with a Portuguese name and one of those words that is pretty untranslatable in other languages and marks one of the feelings of the Portuguese as a culture.

Saudade is truly a beautiful boat as most Wally are, a 145ft Tripp Design for the NA, a Eidsgaard Design for the exterior and interior. It features a torpedo lifting keel to have an accessible draft without hurting sail performance.































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  #6359  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Paulo:
I'm going to have to disagree with you on "personal attacks". Your's are not direct but they are there as subtle insinuations and sometimes less than subtle. To deny that is disingenuous. But I don't mind. I'm confident and I feel no need to be defensive. This is just boat talk to me and I'm not going to get all upset about it. I like a good hearty debate about naval architecture. It's a way to learn.

As for "hating" the thread, why don't you count how many time I have hit the 'like button". I think it tells a different tale from the tale you would like others to believe. I would guess that I hit "like" more or as much as anyone here. There is much design work I admire here.

No need to get your knickers in a twist if I object to something. I'm just one voice here.
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  #6360  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Bob, all this posts of yours were made in a week. Only a blind man would not see a pattern.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Yes, your holyness. Once again you are so right.
I am so sorry to have an opinion.
Regards,
Bob P.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
"That does not mean that looking at a particular and localized period of time the opposite is not also true, with particular relevance some decades ago, meaning that some sailboat, particularly, cruiser-racer designs (that are always influenced in some extent by the existent rating), were heavily influenced by the distortions created by rating, trying to take the better deal out of it. "

Huh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Both of those cabin trunks are not very good looking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Vimey is correct.
Perhaps this 3D model was prepared just a a sales tool, i.e. it's a pretty picture.
I have done that too.
But the type of 3D modeling I prefer can be used as a file for CNC cutting so it has to be dead acurate. This is a builder's tool and not just a sales tool.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Paulo:
I work with a team of specialists. I have an engineer, a fellow who is an expert at deck layouts and electronics and Jody Culbertson III an expert in 3D modelling. Each member of the team is given his asignment. Jody happens to be very good with 3D. ….

Now you can go on getting all upset anytime I post but I can assure you I am not going away. Time for you to HTFU.
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
"That's interesting but vague."
You are funny Paulo. How can calling a boat "the worst boat they have ever tested" be vague? It seem extremely definitive to me, anything but "vague".
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Wow Paulo! I think it's time for you to relax.
I was remarking that the original comment seemed very emphatic and specific about the boat under review at the time. I could see no ambiguity in it. That's all. No need to get all personal and smarmy.
I visit this thread more than any other thread. I enjoy this thread. I like to see boats that I would probably not get to see in US publications.
So:
"I guess your hate for the success of this thread makes you blind."
Is just another snide personal attack.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Paulo:
I'm going to have to disagree with you on "personal attacks". Your's are not direct but they are there as subtle insinuations and sometimes less than subtle. To deny that is disingenuous. But I don't mind. I'm confident and I feel no need to be defensive. This is just boat talk to me and I'm not going to get all upset about it. I like a good hearty debate about naval architecture. It's a way to learn.

As for "hating" the thread, why don't you count how many time I have hit the 'like button". I think it tells a different tale from the tale you would like others to believe. I would guess that I hit "like" more or as much as anyone here. There is much design work I admire here.
No need to get your knickers in a twist if I object to something. I'm just one voice here.

Nobody found the cabins designed by that NA particularly ugly, everybody understood what I wanted to say about rating and hull design and a simple look to that boat would make you understand that it was ridiculous that a credible boat magazine had said that it was the worse boat they ever tested. Yes Robelz was vague and I explained why, asking him to be more specific about what boat and model that statement refers too. Obviously that statement was not referred about the boat I was talking about.

You seem to think that this thread is about you and that what I say is kind of directed to you. It is not. I can’t care less about what you think about it. I am a direct person and I say what I think. I am not rude (or at least I try) and I don’t do personal attacks.

Regarding the likes, it is obvious that many like this thread otherwise it would not attract thousands of visitors each day. The fact that you insist into giving more “likes” than everybody else is annoying, deliberate and makes no sense. Please stop with that and see if you can moderate your contribution to a more positive level, actually posting about interesting contemporary boats or features instead of keeping with that attitude whose purpose is clear.

Many contribute with interesting post to this thread. You are surely the one that has more meaningless or offensive posts and never contributed with nothing new and interesting to it.

You limit yourself to discuss what I say. Nothing wrong with that, but it is certainly very little and much less than many other contributors that actually make with me this thread.

Regards

Paulo
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