Interesting Sailboats

[myocean]

I have discovered the Zou 40 when surfing on the Defline Website. But it's really expensive.
Looks really like a lot of fun!

Originally Posted by PCP

You have also a used Zou 40 for sell (for a long time). I believe they would sell it for a lot less:

Thats a good point...
I would prefer to select a boat which is easy to sell. I can invest my money into a good boat for the duration of a circumnavigation. But afterwards I need to sell again and have the (remaining) money available for a house.

Probably for such a plan a real high value mainstream boat like the First 40 or XP38 would be the right choice for me.
OK, they are even great, but I am easily falling in love with the Pogo and look-alikes. And I like the lifting keel boats.

[myocean]

Originally Posted by OsmundL

most of us want more than a T-shirt and shorts. Pile in some weight and you can chuck these polar diagrams out the window.

Absolutely. However this is mostly a question of attitude towards life.
You don't NEED all the stuff. Think e.g. about people traveling around the world by motorbike (or bicycle!).
I have done long trips by sea kayak and any kind of sailing boat, even with minimalist equipment is already a big luxury.
You get used to what you have. Sure you like your washing machine but the more machines you have on your boat the more can break down. And the more clothes you have the more you will like your washing machine.
There is book from Hans Habek about his circumnavigation together with wife and son (3 years when starting) on an Etap21i.
This proves: If you CAN not take a lot of stuff with you it just works out. The big danger is the easiness of packing more and more in your big boat.

Well, sure, this is still all quite theoretical. I myself have not tried out where the (my) limits really are. Luxury is always a nice thing to have and this is why the Light Displacement Boats are not so popular.

Ulf

[PCP]

Originally Posted by myocean

Absolutely. However this is mostly a question of attitude towards life.
You don't NEED all the stuff. Think e.g. about people traveling around the world by motorbike (or bicycle!).
I have done long trips by sea kayak and any kind of sailing boat, even with minimalist equipment is already a big luxury.
You get used to what you have. Sure you like your washing machine but the more machines you have on your boat the more can break down. And the more clothes you have the more you will like your washing machine.
There is book from Hans Habek about his circumnavigation together with wife and son (3 years when starting) on an Etap21i.
This proves: If you CAN not take a lot of stuff with you it just works out. The big danger is the easiness of packing more and more in your big boat.

....

Ulf

I agree. I like to cruising with a boat or with a car. My and my wife have three cars and for travel he just take the smallest, a tiny roadster that is a pure joy to drive and that can take only two small bags (that come with the car) the size of airplane bags, the ones you carry when you have no luggage.

Me and my wife can travel with that for a month or so (and probably more). It is not a problem because when we were younger we traveled on a Triumph 900 and that one could carry even less. There is no way that we can be convinced to travel in any of our other cars, or any other car, except another sport's light car, as entertaining to drive as our own and that would mean the same or less space for lugage

Regards

Paulo

[PCP]

Originally Posted by OsmundL

..Lots of interesting boats and info – but across a very wide spectrum! There appears to be an undertone “I want to sail really fast – and I’d like to go cruising in it.” Wouldn’t we all?

Well, that is what I want for me, if you add to that : I Want to sail really fast, have a lot of fun sailing it and go cruising in it.

But this thread don't reflect only my personal tastes in what regards cruising, but also other tastes, other ways of cruising.

The key word is "interesting boats" and I would add, for any form of cruising and there are almost as ways of cruising as there are different sailors, from the ones that only want to make coastal cruising to the ones that occasionally cross oceans till the ones that are almost always crossing oceans.

And even among those different categories you will find the ones that like to be surrounded with all comforts, the ones that enjoy simple life and simple things, the ones that need to carry a lot and don't mind having a slower boat and the ones that travel light and want a light and fast boat. For some, cruising with a lot of stuff is indispensable. The emphasis go with cruising and sailing pleasure is not so important, efficiency and comfort is what counts most. For others, cruising and sailing comes in equal parts and from them an enjoyable and fast boat is indispensable for having pleasure, as much as a boat that can carry a good payload is indispensable for the first.

Originally Posted by OsmundL

There are reasons why a clever designer hasn’t built such a boat long ago. Many of the boats in this thread fail to tick the necessary boxes. Before you protest: I certainly do not mean that all the boats in this thread fail the touring test – I’m only suggesting a critical look at each.

First, storage and buoyancy: beyond a few days of coastal cruising, most of us want more than a T-shirt and shorts. Pile in some weight and you can chuck these polar diagrams out the window.
....
What is a touring “load”? I found out in December when my 395 was trucked overland. The truck had a permitted load of 10,000kg and I said, “No sweat, my boat is eight-something ton from the shipyard.” How wrong! It tipped into the red on the truck’s 10-tonne scale, implying stores of 1,5-2 ton. Disbelieving, I double-checked and conceded. 700L of water and fuel, dinghy, life raft, spare sails and ropes, galley and food, more tools than I ever hope to need, oil and misc. paints, washing machine and all the other extras, books, clothing and people – it adds up to way more than you think.

Well, that is your cruising life style I am quite sure that for crossing the Atlantic I will not need more than 200 liters of water, a watermaker, some 90 liters of fuel and a boat that can really sail well in 6/7K wind. Yes I would need food and personal luggage, but I bet I will carry 1/3 of what you will need. That's just my style and I have found a wife that can live with that.

And if you think I am mad or that is no way to make a passage, nor a fast and light boat is the right one, take a look at this link:

giebateau.web-log.nl: 030 Bestemming Antarctica

I know it is in Dutch, but you can see the pictures (and they are beautiful) if you can not read it. It is about a couple that is travelling extensively:

They left Holland in the boat the skipper finds more adequate for him, a First 40.7. They are now exploring Antartica. By the way they say that had got 60K winds and that while they were there 6 boats sink (probably true bluewater boats ). They say also that they have not found any particular problem that they could not handle safely.



They are just leaving....for Japan.

Regards

Paulo

[OsmundL]

Originally Posted by myocean

Absolutely. However this is mostly a question of attitude towards life. You don't NEED all the stuff.

I mentioned the washing machine deliberately – I knew it would get your juices flowing
(In reality, it is no major factor either in weight or space). I don’t want to derail this thread, it is too fun to watch the many good boats. I used to live in Australia and love travelling light, ultra light. You have to decide on either “light” or else “full survival mode.” It’s the in-between that kills you, with insufficient equipment yet little mobility.

My remarks are flavoured by where I sail, mostly in higher latitudes, and here “light” is not an easy option. You have to rely on good shore facilities, and they're often not. You need clothing and heating, there’s no compromise. And your boat must be ready for a storm in inhospitable weather. Sailing from a wide open cockpit can be more than you as a mere mortal will endure – one reason why tiller steering has little going for it.

A quick note on “speed,” another observation from the ARC Dragonfly sailors: “You will find good reaching conditions in less than 5 % of the race.” I have sailed two very similar trips from Biscay to Scandinavia, once in my Ovni and once in an Italian job almost 6ft longer and designed to compete with X-Yachts. Oh, it was elegant! On flat seas the first day I was impressed when it sailed near wind speed at 8 knots, but then wind and waves built and it slowed to a crawl, bashed and stalled into the seas. The greater heel made it uncomfortable, and we gave up on hot meals. After 2-3 days of this we needed an overnight break in harbor. The trip took two days longer than in the Ovni.

Also, consider crew. The Pogo 10.50 is certainly an “offshore-going” boat, but that does not make it a “cruiser.” On a perfect day I envy guys in their Open 40s, but after 18 hours of single-handing, preparing a few meals and still not feeling tired, I thank my 395. It is not on Day One you know that you’ve got a cruising yacht; it is after ten days or more. If you count on having ample crew on easy 2-4 hour watches all the way, by all means sail a Pogo. If not, consider how to sail it when exhausted and the weather builds.

Enough from me on this. Bring on more boats, please!

[OsmundL]

Originally Posted by PCP

And if you think I am mad or that is no way to make a passage.Paulo

I don't think you are. Hell, people have crossed the Atlantic in a rowing boat (although for safety they must be accompanied). I highly recommend an old book titled "Jack the Crow." It is hilarious and describes one guy's voyage from the English waterways to the Black Sea in a Mirror Dinghy.

All I suggest is that people who go cruising know precisely what they planned for, and not leap for a "fast" boat hoping the negatives will go away. At least once a month I ache for a real screamer - a 14ft beach trimaran was the most fun I have had - but I think it will have to be my second boat, if I can afford it.

[myocean]

Originally Posted by OsmundL

All I suggest is that people who go cruising know precisely what they planned for, and not leap for a "fast" boat hoping the negatives will go away.

You are absolutely right with that. Your thoughts are very important!
Ulf

[OsmundL]

Back on topic: here is a new boat that will raise some eyebrows, the Varianta 44. You will first dismiss it for the hideous green interior (I hope they give us alternatives), then for the spartan interior – it looks like a hospital – and finally for the sparse rig and equipment – it does not even sport a roller furler or an anchor locker, though they have a solution for the anchor. Another first: you buy it off the Internet.

All your gripes come, I suggest, before the price is mentioned: starting at 100,000€ ($130,000) for a brand new 44 footer in sailaway condition with a 40hp Volvo? It comes from the Hanse group, also owner of Dehler and Moody, and it fills the void for a “project” boat, one that is basically sound at a super low price point, where you can add things later. Before you dismiss it as “basic”, consider how much easier it is to bring this one up to a personal standard, compared with trying to fix an old second-hand boat?

The hull is essentially a Hanse 430, it is a Judel/Vrolijk design – enough said? I don’t think its sail performance will be too shabby. It is a shoe-in for sailing schools, and some have already ordered. On the site you’ll find specs, polar diagrams and the first tests, and they’ll have it at the Dusseldorf show.

Varianta Segelyachten - from Dehler with love

Personally, I fall for the stark interior. Teak lovers will loathe it, but cloth shelving is adequate, and you can improve on it if you wish. I just hope one can choose coconuts instead of bananas for the artistic “décor.”

[PCP]

Originally Posted by OsmundL

Back on topic: here is a new boat that will raise some eyebrows, the Varianta 44. ..

Yes, we have already talked and posted about it on this thread.

Have a look here:

Interesting Sailboats

[sailingdog]

Not a very realistic photo of the cabin interior, since those pears and apples would be bound for the floor as soon as the boat got underway more likely than not... unless it was very, very calm.