Interesting Sailboats - Page 644 - SailNet Community
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post #6431 of 6763 Old 03-17-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by opc11 View Post
I really miss Perry's contributions.

Where did he go, now that he's destroyed the single best sailnet thread.....
Noone destroyed this thread. From what I understand , Paulo had been asking for total control over "his" thread for quite some time, meaning control over who is allowed to contribute, and what is posted. Obviously, that is not what Sailnet is all about, and they rightfully denied Paulo those privileges. (Moderators, please jump in to correct if I see this wrong!?)
Then came a disagreement about a very uninterresting boat from a below quality producer and the fuse somehow got lit (unnecessary namecalling did not help this either).
The outcome: Paulo now has his blog, where he can be In total control over visitors and comments. Just as he wanted. All is good!
And he can blame it all on this disagreement, rather than the preceeding powerstruggle with the mods for the thread. Perfect! Scapegoats found!
I will certainly miss his contributions, but not his bullying behaviour and inability to admit when he is in the wrong.
As Faster said, there is no reason to not keep posting here about new, interresting sailboats and having a healthy exchange about them.

Last edited by bjung; 03-17-2014 at 09:15 AM.
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post #6432 of 6763 Old 03-17-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Maybe we should start a thread on the behaviors of ostriches....
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post #6433 of 6763 Old 03-17-2014 Thread Starter
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by bjung View Post
Noone destroyed this thread. From what I understand , Paulo had been asking for total control over "his" thread for quite some time, meaning control over who is allowed to contribute, and what is posted. Obviously, that is not what Sailnet is all about, and they rightfully denied Paulo those privileges. (Moderators, please jump in to correct if I see this wrong!?)
Then came a disagreement about a very uninterresting boat from a below quality producer and the fuse somehow got lit (unnecessary namecalling did not help this either).
....
And he can blame it all on this disagreement, rather than the preceeding powerstruggle with the mods for the thread. Perfect! Scapegoats found!
I will certainly miss his contributions, but not his bullying behaviour and inability to admit when he is in the wrong.
....
Since nobody from the moderation appears to say that there was no power struggle whatsoever and because I believe that the truth should be made clear what happened was this:

On another thread I was discussing with Bob the relevant interest of Computational fluid dynamics (CFD) in NA design and it's use by many top NA to improve the quality of their design in what regards learning and performance and I was asked by moderation at Bob’s request to stop debating with him, even on a constructive way (like they have considered I was doing). They asked me not to debate with Bob even if I consider him to be wrong. They said also that they would ask Bob the same regarding him debating my points. I have accepted on the condition the reciprocity would be maintained.

When Bob started to insult people, making absurd comments, wise cracks and meaningless and out of context posts, I mean this kind of stuff:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
..
I have personal hygene issues all under control but I'll confer with you if the need arises...."I am sorry, but you obviously did not get my point."...That happens around here....That commenty is just plain silly...Chill Paulo. You are not the Pope....Paulo... obviously feels threatened.....I think you guys are selling chines. You act like car salesmen selling a tacked on spoiler. Are the chines built in China? Is that why you call them "chines"? I'll say it slowly this time: I am not a hobbyist....Tsia chien Shin nien ...That is a really stupid statement. ...Tsai chien....Gong hay fat choy....Get real Paulo. ....You don't get it.... Read slowly....I rarely shower. I smell like my dogs, I wear woolen shirts. My hair looks funny. I own two pair of shoes. I'm not Euro...I do have an amazing, very expensive hi-fi system probably cost as much as your yacht...My mother's maiden name was Nanelli. Does that help?...Its Wednesday already and I haven't used either of those words yet this week.
...
I sent a message to the moderation saying this:

"Probably you have been following the "problems" on interesting boat thread with Bob. I have been patient face to his rudeness to me and others but regarding a last post asking him in very polite tone to moderate his attitude he replied:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
...
.. I have no intention of "behaving". I never have.
"So please keep your word and keep Bob out of that thread since I cannot ignore him on a thread I pretty much run.

I am not interested in seeing the nice ambiance of that thread become something like the one of the Steel boat thread and I will not continue it on this forum if that is the only option. I am not here to being pissed."


To understand why I am talking about not being able to ignore what Bob was saying or his insults (about me and others that had contributed to this thread) you have to understand that was Bob's proposal, on a previous post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Holy cow Paulo:
.....
But I have a suggestion that could be useful for you:
If you go to where you can edit your preferences for this forum there is a place where you can put people on "ignore". .. for you it would serve to have my posts on ignore and you would not have to read them. This would be good for you too Eric. Better than pissing and moaning.
Because, I'm not going anywhere and I have no intention of "behaving". I never have.
and regarding Bob's participation on the thread, I had not any problem if he behaved normally like me, like all, in a polite constructive discussion. I only complained when he declared publicly that he did not have any intention to behave in a civil way. My complain had to do with the kind of "contribution" and participation that I did not wanted on this thread simply because it would destroy the thread.

As Bob continued with a rude language, wise cracks and meaningless posts I tried again to save the thread and I sent another message to the moderators:

"Jeff, it is very clear, this what you ask me to do at Bob's request. I demanded reciprocity and you have agreed. Other thing would be odd since you would be proceeding differently regarding the same subject with different members. What you have asked me was this:
Quote:
".. Make your points on other topics, but please do not try to debate with Bob. If at this point Bob starts debating your points, I will send him a similar note and ask him to please let you go as well."

maybe I have understood wrongly bit I cannot see how I could be on a thread "dominated" by Bob without debating with him as I cannot see how can Bob be on the interesting sailboat thread without debating with me.

I am not afraid to debate with him if he does that with me and other members in a normal way and not in a paternalistic way, calling names (stupid, silly, myopic) to all that don't share is views and stop with incomprehensible comments and what you call wise cracks.

This is "my" thread and there everybody behaves in a civil and pleasant way. There are other threads for wise cracks, rude behaviors and incomprehensible comments.

Otherwise I would just go elsewhere doing what I am doing here and it will be no more "my" thread.

Bob has been colonizing threads on sailnet, taking them out of subject and making them "his" threads, where he posts his boats. It had happened with the Full keel boat thread that have become a thread about why boats should not have a full keel and about the Steel boat thread that from a thread about steel boats become a thread about why steel boats should be avoided and were everything is posted from chit chat to Bob's boats (except steel boats).

If you want that the interesting thread become another Bob's thread with bob's boats as interesting boats, chit chat and wise cracks fine, but I will go away.
…..
I want to make clear that it was not me that started this. Interesting sailboats is one of the most informative and civil threads in sailnet. If It will change it will not be due to my will but against it. What can I do if a guy publicly says that he would not behave and does not had any intention of behaving and proceeds accordingly with it?"


and a last message:

"...The point is that on a previous occasion, as I have quoted below, Bob had asked you that I stop discussing with him and you asked me to not post on the thread were Bob was posting and that he had made "his" thread.

I agreed and complied on the condition that Bod stop posting on "my" thread. You have agreed. if you don't remember read below because I have quoted the exchange of messages.

I am just asking you to comply with what was agreed then and that's all. I do really hate when compromises are not respected.

Bob has called my comments silly without any reason, called me myopic, said that another contributing member was making stupid affirmations and asked me to read slowly (as if I was stupid) something that he had messed up from the beginning (as he after noticed).

In fact he is the one that has a myopic view regarding the evolution of contemporary NA and continues to design 30 year old designs. The next time he make any comment out of order I will say just that, that is no more nor less than what he has been making regarding the ones that disagree with him...."


So you have it. I guess you can have a good idea of what happened.
I do not hold any grunge about the moderators. Everybody has to take options, they have asked me not to debate with Bob and I complied, probably they asked the same to Bob but he does not know how to behave and did not comply. That's live but what you have posted is not what happened and I don't think you should be talking about something you don't know about.

I ask moderation to understand why I disclosed the messages I had sent to them since I was being accused of something I had not done and they are relevant to this matter. I firmly believe in truth and that nobody should be accused of something that he did not do and nobody should be afraid about truth.

Regards

Paulo


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post #6434 of 6763 Old 03-17-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

If everyone wants to know what happened here, I will explain it.

Basically, we are dealing with two very hard-headed, stubborn, and very proud men who are passionate about what they know. However, they also have their own set of idiosyncrasies. One of them is that neither has any interest in backing down from a fight and stands behind their knowledge 100%. Unfortunately, when you get two people like that, who agree to disagree, the arguments take off exponentially. Neither did anything wrong, neither did anything right. They stood their ground instead of trying to find a way to be gentlemen about it and work it out. We tried to broker a deal but the terms were not something we could live with as moderators... so we had no real options from that point.

The reality is that we all like Paulo and do not want him to leave. He has done a fantastic job on this thread (and others) and the reality is that Paulo likes it here too. Same of course can be said of Bob. Bob didn't just study this stuff, he has done it all his life and has some of the top cruising boats ever penned to his name. He is an incredible resource to the community and has never hesitated to share that. It would be fantastic if they could BOTH find a way to see beyond their differences because that would make a good thread(s) fantastic. Unfortunately, that does not seem to be the case so we, as mods, have had to stand by and watch a slow motion train wreck that we were powerless to stop. Could we have banned or put them on forced ignore or kicked them off of each others respective threads? Sure... but we did not feel that was the right thing to do and would have made a bad situation worse. We are the opposite of heavy-handed here and instead try to keep things civil with compromises and reasoning with people. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Don't blame Paulo for this mess. Don't blame Bob. Blame them both or thank them both for what they have done. In fact, since I haven't said it: thank you both for what you have done here... but damn I wish you guys would find a way to shake hands.

Brian
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post #6435 of 6763 Old 03-17-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

All you've really done is lose a massive amount of 'clicks' and therefore revenue.

Been a lurker around here for ages and you could really do with getting rid of Bob, he acts like an ass. Basically he has a grudge against Paulo. He has hurt pride. "Butt hurt".

I like Paulo's new blog but it just isn't the same sense of community from reading this thread for so long.

Although, I think you could do with having some thicker skin, Paulo. If you ignore a bully, eventually they get bored and move on.

Thanks for your contributions.
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post #6436 of 6763 Old 03-18-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by causeway View Post
All you've really done is lose a massive amount of 'clicks' and therefore revenue.

Been a lurker around here for ages and you could really do with getting rid of Bob, he acts like an ass. Basically he has a grudge against Paulo. He has hurt pride. "Butt hurt".

I like Paulo's new blog but it just isn't the same sense of community from reading this thread for so long.

Although, I think you could do with having some thicker skin, Paulo. If you ignore a bully, eventually they get bored and move on.

Thanks for your contributions.
Almost everyone who was contributing / participating on this thread is doing the same on Paulo's blog, including me. So while it would be nice to have some of the Sailnet forum features on Paulo's blog platform, I imagine that the overall experience will improve as he gets more familiar with the blog capabilities. So don't let minor inconveniences keep you from participating on the new site, Causeway.

While I understand the Moderators' dilemma, it's still rather astonishing how such a rich and heavily-trafficked forum thread was allowed to vaporize in the blink of an eye. Ultimately, as in any "dog fight", the best strategy is to forcibly separate the dogs and keep them apart. To my mind, this could have been accomplished quite easily, though it might have required a bit of effort on the Moderators' part. But, after all, it's just an Internet forum, not the Ukraine.

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post #6437 of 6763 Old 03-18-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by MrPelicano View Post
......To my mind, this could have been accomplished quite easily, though it might have required a bit of effort on the Moderators' part. But, after all, it's just an Internet forum, not the Ukraine.
I can tell you there was no lack of effort on our part collectively to attempt to settle the situation down. You'd be staggered to know the sheer volume of PMs involved in the background throughout this debacle.

All for naught, in the end, but the effort was there.
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by Faster View Post
I can tell you there was no lack of effort on our part collectively to attempt to settle the situation down. You'd be staggered to know the sheer volume of PMs involved in the background throughout this debacle.

All for naught, in the end, but the effort was there.
Sorry, meant "effort" on an ongoing basis - i.e., as in "you gotta keep 'em separated." I was aware that a considerable amount of effort went into trying to resolve the problem, prior to the final implosion. Didn't mean to diminish that. I tried a bit of behind-the-scenes mediation as well.

Ultimately just need to keep things in perspective, as most seem to be doing.

Regards,

MrP

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post #6439 of 6763 Old 03-19-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
damn I wish you guys would find a way to shake hands.

Brian
What he said.

I will go a step further, that you can't shake hands, that there is now continuing "see everyone look why I was right and he was wrong" crap diminishes the greatness of the contribution.

Paulo you remind me of a former Sailnet member. He was also a valuable, vital contributor with a personality to match. He also left here in a blaze of glory and burn't the curtains on the way out the door, proclaiming how worse off we would all be. It was also all because of what was essentially petty playground bickering.

Well he really showed us. Most people here would of never heard of him now.

Paulo, can't we just let it go and talk boats???

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post #6440 of 6763 Old 03-20-2014 Thread Starter
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by chall03 View Post
What he said.

I will go a step further, that you can't shake hands, that there is now continuing "see everyone look why I was right and he was wrong" crap diminishes the greatness of the contribution.

Paulo you remind me of a former Sailnet member. He was also a valuable, vital contributor with a personality to match. He also left here in a blaze of glory and burn't the curtains on the way out the door, proclaiming how worse off we would all be. It was also all because of what was essentially petty playground bickering.

Well he really showed us. Most people here would of never heard of him now.

Paulo, can't we just let it go and talk boats???
Hi chall!

You are mistaken. I did not left sailnet, I bet i am still posting more than most I like most people here including you and that's the only reason I am replying.

I simply stop posting on a given thread that is what all do at a given time. In Portugal we have a say that translated will give something like this: "If you are not well, move to another place" and that's what I have done just regarding my participation on this thread. Fact is that I was feeling pissed and had enough of it. No drama, no melodramatics no blaze of glory no nothing. I just fell more comfortable and happy doing what I was doing on this thread on another place. It was no fun here anymore for me the way things were going, that's all. My problem. Carry on with the thread.

Regards

Paulo
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