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  #6441  
Old 03-10-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Nautic 370 Run: Federgewicht vom Plattensee - Galerie*|*YACHT.DE


YACHT tested the Nautic 370 run. Can't await to read the text.
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  #6442  
Old 03-11-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

The next edition of the AC is expected to be sailed with foiling cats at 62' with some OD parts...
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  #6443  
Old 03-13-2014
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Viko 30s / Viko 22s

A last post, since I have posted relevant information regarding the differences and similitude between the ViKo 30S and the Viko 22S, I mean regarding this subject:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Not long ago I posted about the Viko 30s a boat designed by Sergio Lupoli and made in Poland:



I had the opportunity to see the boat in Dusseldorf...and it looks good. The finish is nothing special but I would say average but the design is great and the price is incredible. Lots of small boats made in Poland but generally with not with interesting designs. If I was starting sailing or if I had not much money but wanted a modern coastal cruiser....well, I would look to this one seriously: A lot of boat for the money and some sailing fun too.







The wheel really looks odd on this boat but there is a version with tiller that makes more sense.






VIKO YACHTS
Quote:
Originally Posted by robelz View Post
Well, YACHT magazine called the VIKO the worst boat they've ever tested...
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
That's interesting but vague. Can you give more details about that? Why do have they said that: Regarding sailing?, regarding build quality? That's kind of odd because the designer is a well known one and this design is very similar with another one that is a popular fast and good sailboat. Are you sure you are talking about the Viko 30s?

I cannot find any test on the boat by Yacht.de:

Download*|*YACHT.DE

Only this first impression Yacht.de is very positive not negative:

"At the stand of the Polish shipyard, a surprise awaits visitors: beautiful lines instead of the current maximum space efficiency. You have to look twice to realize that it really is a new Viko, because the sailboats of the Polish shipyard have been noticed by compromise sailing regarding interior space.They normally have a big freeboard: The Vikos belong to the type of boats that are currently being built in the small cruiser segment and the best. The Poles have their market share in Germany by offering boats not compromised by a reasonable price.

The Viko 30S is significantly less voloninous than the previous models, is designed with harmonious deck lines and it looks absolutely chic.

Regarding the price, the Poles want to score: 29.900 euros for a 31-foot sailboat, is very good. That would be actually sensational. So what's going on? Germany importer André explains the design change of paradigm: "The shipyard plans to establish a second line, so the change on style. The 30S is a design by the Italian Sergio Lupoli, who also works for Comar Yachts."

Strictly speaking, the Viko 30S is the same design as the Comet 31s, but it has been modified in many details of Viko: "The shipyard has invested heavily in the future and a 35s, 40s and even 50s will follow." The previous old type of small voluminous boats will continue to be produced in parallel as a second line."

.......

Viko Yachts: Hanseboot-Premiere VIII: Viko 30S - Yachten + Jollen*|*YACHT.DE

Again, are not you talking about one of those previous fat models? Are you talking about the Viko 30s? Can you point me to that test? I would like to read it since it seems odd to me that they had said that regarding a boat that has obviously a good design.

Regards

Paulo
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
"That's interesting but vague."
You are funny Paulo. How can calling a boat "the worst boat they have ever tested" be vague? It seem extremely definitive to me, anything but "vague".
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjung View Post
No, Paulo, I understood just fine, and my post was not reinforcing your comments, quite the contrary. Maybe YOU do not understand !? I was referring to, as the subject line clearly states, the Viko S22, designed by Sergio Lupoli (same designer as the S30 ), the FIRST of a new line.
For accuracy's sake, the article you quoted never mentions that the S30 is a completely different boat than the S22, as you claim. It mentions, however, that the S30 is different from the previous high freeboard, voluminous line of boats (which will remain in production ), and presents a second line of production designed by Sergio Lupoli, just as the S22, the first of the line, I humbly posted about.
The same designer, the same builder, the same building, the same line of production...
....
I guess we will find out the details, when they actually sail the S30. Maybe she will pass the heeling test without taking on water, stay tuned...
I will however grant, that she is a decent looking boat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjung View Post
Here you go again, with unsubstantiated claims.
Nowhere in this article is there a comment about the freeboard of the 22, or any other comparison drawn between the S30 and the S22!! Please point it out, if I missed it!
Maybe we should all just adopt the following rules:
1) Paulo is always right.
2) Should the occasion arise, where Paulo is actually wrong, then rule 1 will immediately go into effect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by robelz View Post
Sorry for confusing you all. Of course the S22 was the boat that YACHT hated...
I did not posted it here at the time because I did not want to increase conflictuality but I think that the information contained here will be relevant to understand what this was all about and why Viko 30S is not the same type of boat as the Viko 22S, except in what regards general looks. Yiu can find the comparison here:

Interesting Sailboats
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  #6444  
Old 03-16-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

I really miss Perry's contributions.

Where did he go, now that he's destroyed the single best sailnet thread.....
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  #6445  
Old 03-17-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by opc11 View Post
I really miss Perry's contributions.

Where did he go, now that he's destroyed the single best sailnet thread.....
Noone destroyed this thread. From what I understand , Paulo had been asking for total control over "his" thread for quite some time, meaning control over who is allowed to contribute, and what is posted. Obviously, that is not what Sailnet is all about, and they rightfully denied Paulo those privileges. (Moderators, please jump in to correct if I see this wrong!?)
Then came a disagreement about a very uninterresting boat from a below quality producer and the fuse somehow got lit (unnecessary namecalling did not help this either).
The outcome: Paulo now has his blog, where he can be In total control over visitors and comments. Just as he wanted. All is good!
And he can blame it all on this disagreement, rather than the preceeding powerstruggle with the mods for the thread. Perfect! Scapegoats found!
I will certainly miss his contributions, but not his bullying behaviour and inability to admit when he is in the wrong.
As Faster said, there is no reason to not keep posting here about new, interresting sailboats and having a healthy exchange about them.

Last edited by bjung; 03-17-2014 at 09:15 AM.
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  #6446  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Maybe we should start a thread on the behaviors of ostriches....
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  #6447  
Old 03-17-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjung View Post
Noone destroyed this thread. From what I understand , Paulo had been asking for total control over "his" thread for quite some time, meaning control over who is allowed to contribute, and what is posted. Obviously, that is not what Sailnet is all about, and they rightfully denied Paulo those privileges. (Moderators, please jump in to correct if I see this wrong!?)
Then came a disagreement about a very uninterresting boat from a below quality producer and the fuse somehow got lit (unnecessary namecalling did not help this either).
....
And he can blame it all on this disagreement, rather than the preceeding powerstruggle with the mods for the thread. Perfect! Scapegoats found!
I will certainly miss his contributions, but not his bullying behaviour and inability to admit when he is in the wrong.
....
Since nobody from the moderation appears to say that there was no power struggle whatsoever and because I believe that the truth should be made clear what happened was this:

On another thread I was discussing with Bob the relevant interest of Computational fluid dynamics (CFD) in NA design and it's use by many top NA to improve the quality of their design in what regards learning and performance and I was asked by moderation at Bob’s request to stop debating with him, even on a constructive way (like they have considered I was doing). They asked me not to debate with Bob even if I consider him to be wrong. They said also that they would ask Bob the same regarding him debating my points. I have accepted on the condition the reciprocity would be maintained.

When Bob started to insult people, making absurd comments, wise cracks and meaningless and out of context posts, I mean this kind of stuff:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
..
I have personal hygene issues all under control but I'll confer with you if the need arises...."I am sorry, but you obviously did not get my point."...That happens around here....That commenty is just plain silly...Chill Paulo. You are not the Pope....Paulo... obviously feels threatened.....I think you guys are selling chines. You act like car salesmen selling a tacked on spoiler. Are the chines built in China? Is that why you call them "chines"? I'll say it slowly this time: I am not a hobbyist....Tsia chien Shin nien ...That is a really stupid statement. ...Tsai chien....Gong hay fat choy....Get real Paulo. ....You don't get it.... Read slowly....I rarely shower. I smell like my dogs, I wear woolen shirts. My hair looks funny. I own two pair of shoes. I'm not Euro...I do have an amazing, very expensive hi-fi system probably cost as much as your yacht...My mother's maiden name was Nanelli. Does that help?...Its Wednesday already and I haven't used either of those words yet this week.
...
I sent a message to the moderation saying this:

"Probably you have been following the "problems" on interesting boat thread with Bob. I have been patient face to his rudeness to me and others but regarding a last post asking him in very polite tone to moderate his attitude he replied:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
...
.. I have no intention of "behaving". I never have.
"So please keep your word and keep Bob out of that thread since I cannot ignore him on a thread I pretty much run.

I am not interested in seeing the nice ambiance of that thread become something like the one of the Steel boat thread and I will not continue it on this forum if that is the only option. I am not here to being pissed."


To understand why I am talking about not being able to ignore what Bob was saying or his insults (about me and others that had contributed to this thread) you have to understand that was Bob's proposal, on a previous post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Holy cow Paulo:
.....
But I have a suggestion that could be useful for you:
If you go to where you can edit your preferences for this forum there is a place where you can put people on "ignore". .. for you it would serve to have my posts on ignore and you would not have to read them. This would be good for you too Eric. Better than pissing and moaning.
Because, I'm not going anywhere and I have no intention of "behaving". I never have.
and regarding Bob's participation on the thread, I had not any problem if he behaved normally like me, like all, in a polite constructive discussion. I only complained when he declared publicly that he did not have any intention to behave in a civil way. My complain had to do with the kind of "contribution" and participation that I did not wanted on this thread simply because it would destroy the thread.

As Bob continued with a rude language, wise cracks and meaningless posts I tried again to save the thread and I sent another message to the moderators:

"Jeff, it is very clear, this what you ask me to do at Bob's request. I demanded reciprocity and you have agreed. Other thing would be odd since you would be proceeding differently regarding the same subject with different members. What you have asked me was this:
Quote:
".. Make your points on other topics, but please do not try to debate with Bob. If at this point Bob starts debating your points, I will send him a similar note and ask him to please let you go as well."

maybe I have understood wrongly bit I cannot see how I could be on a thread "dominated" by Bob without debating with him as I cannot see how can Bob be on the interesting sailboat thread without debating with me.

I am not afraid to debate with him if he does that with me and other members in a normal way and not in a paternalistic way, calling names (stupid, silly, myopic) to all that don't share is views and stop with incomprehensible comments and what you call wise cracks.

This is "my" thread and there everybody behaves in a civil and pleasant way. There are other threads for wise cracks, rude behaviors and incomprehensible comments.

Otherwise I would just go elsewhere doing what I am doing here and it will be no more "my" thread.

Bob has been colonizing threads on sailnet, taking them out of subject and making them "his" threads, where he posts his boats. It had happened with the Full keel boat thread that have become a thread about why boats should not have a full keel and about the Steel boat thread that from a thread about steel boats become a thread about why steel boats should be avoided and were everything is posted from chit chat to Bob's boats (except steel boats).

If you want that the interesting thread become another Bob's thread with bob's boats as interesting boats, chit chat and wise cracks fine, but I will go away.
…..
I want to make clear that it was not me that started this. Interesting sailboats is one of the most informative and civil threads in sailnet. If It will change it will not be due to my will but against it. What can I do if a guy publicly says that he would not behave and does not had any intention of behaving and proceeds accordingly with it?"


and a last message:

"...The point is that on a previous occasion, as I have quoted below, Bob had asked you that I stop discussing with him and you asked me to not post on the thread were Bob was posting and that he had made "his" thread.

I agreed and complied on the condition that Bod stop posting on "my" thread. You have agreed. if you don't remember read below because I have quoted the exchange of messages.

I am just asking you to comply with what was agreed then and that's all. I do really hate when compromises are not respected.

Bob has called my comments silly without any reason, called me myopic, said that another contributing member was making stupid affirmations and asked me to read slowly (as if I was stupid) something that he had messed up from the beginning (as he after noticed).

In fact he is the one that has a myopic view regarding the evolution of contemporary NA and continues to design 30 year old designs. The next time he make any comment out of order I will say just that, that is no more nor less than what he has been making regarding the ones that disagree with him...."


So you have it. I guess you can have a good idea of what happened.
I do not hold any grunge about the moderators. Everybody has to take options, they have asked me not to debate with Bob and I complied, probably they asked the same to Bob but he does not know how to behave and did not comply. That's live but what you have posted is not what happened and I don't think you should be talking about something you don't know about.

I ask moderation to understand why I disclosed the messages I had sent to them since I was being accused of something I had not done and they are relevant to this matter. I firmly believe in truth and that nobody should be accused of something that he did not do and nobody should be afraid about truth.

Regards

Paulo
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  #6448  
Old 03-17-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

If everyone wants to know what happened here, I will explain it.

Basically, we are dealing with two very hard-headed, stubborn, and very proud men who are passionate about what they know. However, they also have their own set of idiosyncrasies. One of them is that neither has any interest in backing down from a fight and stands behind their knowledge 100%. Unfortunately, when you get two people like that, who agree to disagree, the arguments take off exponentially. Neither did anything wrong, neither did anything right. They stood their ground instead of trying to find a way to be gentlemen about it and work it out. We tried to broker a deal but the terms were not something we could live with as moderators... so we had no real options from that point.

The reality is that we all like Paulo and do not want him to leave. He has done a fantastic job on this thread (and others) and the reality is that Paulo likes it here too. Same of course can be said of Bob. Bob didn't just study this stuff, he has done it all his life and has some of the top cruising boats ever penned to his name. He is an incredible resource to the community and has never hesitated to share that. It would be fantastic if they could BOTH find a way to see beyond their differences because that would make a good thread(s) fantastic. Unfortunately, that does not seem to be the case so we, as mods, have had to stand by and watch a slow motion train wreck that we were powerless to stop. Could we have banned or put them on forced ignore or kicked them off of each others respective threads? Sure... but we did not feel that was the right thing to do and would have made a bad situation worse. We are the opposite of heavy-handed here and instead try to keep things civil with compromises and reasoning with people. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Don't blame Paulo for this mess. Don't blame Bob. Blame them both or thank them both for what they have done. In fact, since I haven't said it: thank you both for what you have done here... but damn I wish you guys would find a way to shake hands.

Brian
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  #6449  
Old 03-17-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

All you've really done is lose a massive amount of 'clicks' and therefore revenue.

Been a lurker around here for ages and you could really do with getting rid of Bob, he acts like an ass. Basically he has a grudge against Paulo. He has hurt pride. "Butt hurt".

I like Paulo's new blog but it just isn't the same sense of community from reading this thread for so long.

Although, I think you could do with having some thicker skin, Paulo. If you ignore a bully, eventually they get bored and move on.

Thanks for your contributions.
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  #6450  
Old 03-18-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by causeway View Post
All you've really done is lose a massive amount of 'clicks' and therefore revenue.

Been a lurker around here for ages and you could really do with getting rid of Bob, he acts like an ass. Basically he has a grudge against Paulo. He has hurt pride. "Butt hurt".

I like Paulo's new blog but it just isn't the same sense of community from reading this thread for so long.

Although, I think you could do with having some thicker skin, Paulo. If you ignore a bully, eventually they get bored and move on.

Thanks for your contributions.
Almost everyone who was contributing / participating on this thread is doing the same on Paulo's blog, including me. So while it would be nice to have some of the Sailnet forum features on Paulo's blog platform, I imagine that the overall experience will improve as he gets more familiar with the blog capabilities. So don't let minor inconveniences keep you from participating on the new site, Causeway.

While I understand the Moderators' dilemma, it's still rather astonishing how such a rich and heavily-trafficked forum thread was allowed to vaporize in the blink of an eye. Ultimately, as in any "dog fight", the best strategy is to forcibly separate the dogs and keep them apart. To my mind, this could have been accomplished quite easily, though it might have required a bit of effort on the Moderators' part. But, after all, it's just an Internet forum, not the Ukraine.
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