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post #6471 of 6763 Old 03-26-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Yeah, that German boat is beautiful, Stunning? Maybe. But you know what they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and my client loves his boat. That was my goal. We were not trying to reproduce and antique, just the feel of some of the old boats.

I originally drew Frankie with a defined curve to the top part of the mast, like some of the square meter boats. But the sailmakers hated it. I liked the look though. I got voted down on that detail when we found a Farr 40 rig was almost identical to what I had drawn and there were two used Farr 40 masts available. In retrospect it was a very good decision.

Very interesting headstay struts on the German boat. I have not seen it quite like that before. Not much supporting the top of that mast athwartships.

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Last edited by bobperry; 03-26-2014 at 01:59 PM.
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post #6472 of 6763 Old 03-26-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sternik View Post
First thought that comes to my mine is a german Jollenkreuzer. This one here, build in 1928, is stunning. The boat above, not so.
That is a very neat picture. The curve in the upper portion of the rig reminds me of the Herreshoff S-Boats and




some of the Skerry Cruisers (22 square meter class).


The curved upper mast was a fad which probably originates with Manfred Curry's research into aerodynamics in the early 20th century. Manfred Curry's research was pivotal in understanding the behavior of wings and sails. He had access to the Fokker wind tunnel and tested actual bird wings and metal sails to measure how they behaved. His book on sailing aerodynamics was widely read and raised the bar on the understanding of how sailboats worked. It was full of illustrations comparing bird wings to sails.



One of his main areas of research was on how to obtain the most efficient sail plan (drive to drag) with a fixed amount of sail area. He came up with a fractionally rigged sloop sail plan with a very large mainsail, with a curved masthead and a comparatively small headsail. He employed this on a number of designs the most famous of which probably was his J-Jolie boat.



While Curry's design was a sliding gunther, which permits the sail to be reefed, I have aways wondered what happens when you try to reef a rig like the S-Boat or a Skerry with their curved upper mainsails, when the curved portion of the sail hits the straight portion of the track.

Jeff


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post #6473 of 6763 Old 03-26-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Jeff:
I think that may have been one of the reasons the sailmakers were not keen on my rig.

When I look at those pics they look to me a bit like they are on their way to a square topped main. Under some rules the curved topmast was a way to gain some unmeasured sail area (British 12's).

Kim, my client owned a 30 sq. meter so he was well acquainted with the curved mast look. But in the end practicality and the cost of a used Farr 40 rig won the day. Like I said, it was probably a good decision. So far it's working nicely.

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post #6474 of 6763 Old 03-26-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
Jeff:
I think that may have been one of the reasons the sailmakers were not keen on my rig.

When I look at those pics they look to me a bit like they are on their way to a square topped main. Under some rules the curved topmast was a way to gain some unmeasured sail area (British 12's).

Kim, my client owned a 30 sq. meter so he was well acquainted with the curved mast look. But in the end practicality and the cost of a used Farr 40 rig won the day. Like I said, it was probably a good decision. So far it's working nicely.
One of the things that has always amazed me about Curry was he was an 18 year old kid when he wrote his first monograph on the aerodynamics of sailing around 1917. (His first real book was roughly 7 year later and his best know book a few years later than that.) But even more amazing that that, was that he pretty much anticipated the large roach mainsail, slightly overlapping jib sail plan in his research.

His work was aimed at a series of development classes which restricted the area of the sail (including roach) to a fixed amount. His research was trying to come up with the most efficient sail shape for all points of sailing using a constant sail area. That shape came from his wind tunnel testing.

Which is not to say that other classes used the curved mast as a rule beater way of obtaining unrated sail area.

Curry was one of those guys who just was into science and invention. He is credited with developing the tapered full length batten, and the cam cleat. He is also credited with creating the recombant bicycle (both two and 4 wheel versions). He was a medical doctor and while some of his theories have been dismissed over time, I understand that much of his basic research has supposedly held up very well.

I think the Farr 40 rig was the right call even if the curved rig might have been slightly more elegant looking.

Jeff


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post #6475 of 6763 Old 03-26-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Thanks Jeff:
I had heard the name but that's it.
I love the look of the J boat. The main is damn near a wing sail profile. He was most certainly on the right track.

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post #6476 of 6763 Old 03-26-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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First thought that comes to my mine is a german Jollenkreuzer. This one here, build in 1928, is stunning. The boat above, not so.
I agree that the Jollenkreuzer is a lovely boat but what charms me most about that photo is the detailing in the gunwhales/bulwarks, the quality of the brightwork and the simple charm of a crew dressed gentleman style to go sailing. The cabin has a slightly frumpy charm atop a lovely hull.

I can't see what you don't like about the Sliver's lines; I, for one, would love to sail her. The owner has avoided the brightwork and `bronziness' of classics back east which speaks of a desire to simply sail the boat. I think her lines are nicer..

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post #6477 of 6763 Old 03-26-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Ringle:
We knew from the start that we couldn't pull off the authentic look of an antique boat. My fear was that we would end up with neither fish nor fowl. I see it frequently. So we eliminated the teak toe rail, cabin trunk eyebrow and hatch trimming and went all composite for a clean, kind of modern, look. This way we have kept upkeep to a true minimum. Soap and water is all it takes. It is what it is, a composite boat.

But I respect different tastes. That's what keeps me in business. While you may think it's my sparkling, congenial and pleasant personality that lands the commissions it's probably more to do with the range of design styles I am comfortable working in.

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Re: Interesting Sailboats

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Originally Posted by Sternik View Post
First thought that comes to my mine is a german Jollenkreuzer. This one here, build in 1928, is stunning. The boat above, not so.
Somebody has to say it.....

Sternik, your taste is all in your mouth.

I, myself, personally intend to continue being outspoken and opinionated, intolerant of all fanatics, fools and ignoramuses, deeply suspicious of all those who have "found the answer" and on my bad days, downright rude.
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post #6479 of 6763 Old 03-26-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Jon:
we are all entitled to our aesthetic opinions.

Sterniks are way bad but that's ok. He likes what he likes.

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post #6480 of 6763 Old 03-26-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

SloopJonB, your comment alone shows that your views and views of others like you, contributed to the total destruction of this thread. There is a reason why vehicles designed on this continent are not a sales hit in the other parts of the world. Same goes for boats. No mass production boat builder will stay profitable by selling "new old boats" and global market economics have proven that time after time.

The Jollenkreuzers where ahead of their time when they were build, together with the boats mentioned by Jeff H on the previous page. First operational sail wings were used in the late 1930s and not on AC boats, as it is believed. So from my perspective, sir, it is your taste that is, well, dated.
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