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  #6571  
Old 04-17-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimbottles View Post
I thought C&C was Canadian.......
Canadian firm, during their prime, they're currently based in the "province" of Rhode Island, as part of U.S. Watercraft. But it's common practice, both in the U.S. and elsewhere, to conflate Canada as part of the U.S.

Well, probably not in Canada....

Similarly, the Irish would not be amused to be lumped in with the UK, considering how many hundreds of years it took them to rid themselves of colonial rule. Mills is an American, based in County Wicklow, possibly taking advantage of Ireland's generous tax incentives for business. I'm guessing it's not because of the weather.

Farr is often referred to as a U.S. design firm, even through Bruce Farr isn't an American. Given their scope, it would probably be more accurate to call them a global design firm. But, of course, their HQ is in Annapolis, MD, which technically makes them a U.S. firm, I suppose.

I guess the sailing industry is a lot like the Americas Cup - everyone is from everywhere and "national" labels are primarily for marketing and tax purposes.

NOTE: I don't have any sales data in front of me, but it's quite likely that C&C's primary market was the United States, which would make them, in certain respects, a "U.S. brand" - charismatic or otherwise. But certainly there was great pride among Canadians when C&C boats turned up at major North American regattas and kicked butt on U.S. and U.K. designed boats. I don't think I've ever sailed on a C&C boat, but there are still plenty of them on the water (pretty sure there's a C&C 110 moored across the way from my office).
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Last edited by MrPelicano; 04-17-2014 at 01:04 PM.
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  #6572  
Old 04-17-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

At one point, while a Canadian firm, C&C was the largest production sailboat builder in North America.

Ironically, their foray into building in the U.S. was a significant factor in their downfall - they lost a bundle on it apparently.

P.S. Taxes are the reason for all the yacht designers in Ireland - Holland was an early tax refugee there IIRC. It was because of a very lenient tax category for artists at the time, not business in general.
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  #6573  
Old 04-17-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

"But it's common practice, both in the U.S. and elsewhere, to conflate Canada as part of the U.S. "

That will come as a big surprise to a lot of my Canadian friends.
C&C will always be known of as a Canadian design team.

Mark Mill's family lives in Ireland. Mark is as much American as I am Australian.

Nice photo taken by Jan's Marine Photography of Kim's FRANCIS LEE slipping to weather in 12+ knots, doing 9.5 knots and heeling about 15 degrees, feather light helm and everyone having a great time.
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  #6574  
Old 04-17-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
"But it's common practice, both in the U.S. and elsewhere, to conflate Canada as part of the U.S. "
While in New Zealand several years ago we were mistaken for Canadians. We did not feel it would be polite to correct the Kiwi's who thought Seattle was part of BC. (And I am the grandson of a Canadian, so close enough.)
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  #6575  
Old 04-17-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
"But it's common practice, both in the U.S. and elsewhere, to conflate Canada as part of the U.S. "

That will come as a big surprise to a lot of my Canadian friends.
C&C will always be known of as a Canadian design team.

Mark Mill's family lives in Ireland. Mark is as much American as I am Australian.
As I said, it will come as no surprise to anyone, including Canadians, that many Americans and others conflate Canada with the U.S. all the time. Canadians lament and ridicule this practice, underscoring, as it does, Americans' general lack of geographical knowledge.

My family lived for many years in Hong Kong. One of my brothers was born in Japan and another has lived in the Philippines for 34 years. Doesn't change the fact that we've got an American passports.

Perhaps we can ping Mark and ask him what he considers himself to be? I think you've got him on speed dial, IIRC.

But, as I said, "nationality" is just an accident of birth, of political or commercial expediency, or state of mind. I don't have much time for it myself.

EDIT: From Mills' site: "Originally from California, Mills studied Yacht Design at the Southampton Institute while racing with some of the best teams in the UK, before launching his first design Aztec in Ireland in 1996." I'm originally from California, too, and have actually been to Southampton. Mark and I must be related.
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  #6576  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Peli:
No need to be snide.

No, don't have Mark on Speed dial. But I think Mark considers himself Irish. He speaks with a nice English accent though with no Irish overtones or undertones. I made a joke to him once when he was interning to the fact that I'd like to come to England and stay in his castle. He said, you can come stay in the castle but the castle is in Ireland.
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  #6577  
Old 04-17-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Wait - I live in Texas. I thought we owned both Canada AND Mexico. What the hell? I need to hit Wikipedia.
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  #6578  
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Bjung:
I went back to North Carolina last month for 5 days to look in on the CATARI project. I went with my buddy Tim O'Connell who is assisting me on the project. Tim is doing the deck layout and the electronics package. Tim is a very good racing sailor and knows technology and navigational interfaces very well. He has an accounting background and is a whizz at detailing and cataloging all the part numbers for a complex deck like CATARI has.

The center cockpit, ketch rig and pilot house put pressures on the deck layout you don't often encounter. When we were there we did a lot of work refining the position of the deck gear and mocking up as much as possible on the molded deck. The local Harken rep stopped by to chip in his 2 cents worth much to Tim's annoyance. Tim has put a tremendous amount of time into this deck.

Considerable time was spent mocking up the binnacle and planning just what would go on it and exactly where it would be placed in the cockpit. Steve Brodie took a ball of foam and fashioned a faceted old style compass.

The rest of our time was spent below going over various details of the interior. As in every project, as the boat comes together changes are inevitable and we needed to make adjustments to kepi everything working together. It's fun. I did not take any
photos.

The hull is amazing. It does not have any clear coat on it yet but even then it is as nice a paint job as I have ever seen.
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  #6579  
Old 04-17-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Wait - I live in Texas. I thought we owned both Canada AND Mexico. What the hell? I need to hit Wikipedia.
Texas is WAAAY too small to take us over. We could tuck it away in the Northeast corner of the province, where no-one ever goes.

The way we hear it up here, Mexico has pretty well repossessed the whole southwestern U.S. from Texas to the coast.
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Last edited by SloopJonB; 04-17-2014 at 03:13 PM.
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  #6580  
Old 04-17-2014
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Re: Interesting Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
..
Mark is as much American as I am Australian.
..
Funny, I thought you were born In America and I did not know that Australia played and plays a big part in your live.

Mark Mills was born in S Francisco, California, studied on Willamette University in Oregon, and his first contact with Naval Architecture was with Tom Wylie, the San Francisco NA. He studied Naval Architecture on the best University (Southampton, UK) returned to the US and he says that "worked a bit for Bob Perry" in Seattle. He says also that even if their parents moved to Ireland when he was 11 years old he passed 50% of his time on US and 50% in Europe. Of course I don't know if he feels more European or American but he is refereed as:

"Ireland-based American designer, Mark Mills"

Under the skin of the new Alegre Mills 72 mini maxi | The Daily Sail

Mark Mills has been associated with the best that had happened in what regards contemporary edge production yacht sailboat brands in the the US. He did not only designed the two new C&C sailboats as well as the Summit line of performance cruisers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobperry View Post
C&C will always be known of as a Canadian design team.
..
As Mr Pelicano pointed out C&C is today an US firm:

"US Watercraft LLC is joining up with award winning yacht designer Mark Mills to create its new C&C Yachts models. Building on the current world wide success of the Mills Design"

and probably they will succeed (I hope) in raising the brand to its former glory. They have not only great designs has C&C will be lead by Barry Carroll, the founder of Carroll Marine the one that built the Mumm30 and Farr40 on the last decade.

But C&C had always been an American firm:

"C&C ... the premiere race boat builder in North America"
History - C&C Yachts

As an European allow me to have a less self centered perspective: C&C are American boats (North American if you want to be picky), were a Canadian brand (not a US one).

I know that most US citizens have a self centered view regarding what is America and American and find they are the only Americans but that is not a global view even if a widely shared one.

Considering C&C American boats is as right has considering Bavaria or Grand Soleil European boats. France is the bigger producer of sailboats but not all European sailboats are French, as well as not all American boats are from the the US.
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Last edited by PCP; 04-17-2014 at 06:57 PM.
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