Interesting Sailboats - Page 67 - SailNet Community
 1269Likes
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #661 of 6763 Old 02-11-2011
tdw
Super Fuzzy Moderator
 
tdw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 16,491
Thanks: 15
Thanked 103 Times in 97 Posts
Rep Power: 10
     
Paulo,

Thanks for the catch up.

I had a quick look but didn't see anything in this thread...have we discussed the Hanse 400 ?

Andrew B

“Life is a trick, and you get one chance to learn it.”
― Terry Pratchett, Nation

Malo 39 Classic
tdw is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #662 of 6763 Old 02-11-2011
tdw
Super Fuzzy Moderator
 
tdw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 16,491
Thanks: 15
Thanked 103 Times in 97 Posts
Rep Power: 10
     
I'm going to be on one today. I'll let you know what i think.

A

Andrew B

“Life is a trick, and you get one chance to learn it.”
― Terry Pratchett, Nation

Malo 39 Classic
tdw is offline  
post #663 of 6763 Old 02-12-2011
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 290
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 5
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
On a boat like the Pogo 12.50, the boat starts planing at 12K. It means that at 12K it is already over hull speed. With 30K wind the boat is very light over the water and doing 17K or a bit more. At speed the boat is very stable (speed also increases stability). Its large transom prevents the rolling motion you find on the older boat and you can leave it on autopilot even when you go to sleep. As a bonus you have over the deck a lot less wind (probably 15K or so).
Hi Paulo!

If this is really so great (and you know I am a fan of the Pogos), why are there not more such boats on the market? Some other boat builders show that even lightweight boats can have a reasonable (better) comfort inside. Combining these features should be great.
So is Pogo Structures just the first of some more (and better) to come? Are the Pogo's ahead of time?

Or do people just not like such a performance?
Or are there more relevant disadvantages like noisiness, bumpy upwind rides, ...

I remember a review about the First 30 where the author wrote he was very astonished about the soft and comfortable upwind sailing which he said must be due to a very smart, improved hull design for this kind of (flat, wide transom) boat. So are there some interesting design improvements which can be expected for the real fast cruising boats in future?
Ulf
myocean is offline  
post #664 of 6763 Old 02-12-2011 Thread Starter
PCP
Senior Member
 
PCP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,212
Thanks: 21
Thanked 104 Times in 87 Posts
Rep Power: 11
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by myocean View Post
Hi Paulo!

If this is really so great (and you know I am a fan of the Pogos), why are there not more such boats on the market? Some other boat builders show that even lightweight boats can have a reasonable (better) comfort inside. Combining these features should be great.
So is Pogo Structures just the first of some more (and better) to come? Are the Pogo's ahead of time?

Or do people just not like such a performance?
Or are there more relevant disadvantages like noisiness, bumpy upwind rides, ...
Hi Ulf!

Yes , Pogo were ahead of its time, but that was 10 years ago. Know there are many cruising boats that have followed what has been learned on racing oceanic boats with short crew (or solo) from the past 20 Years.

The reason why you don't see them on mass production boats (Elan seems to be an exception) is because those boats are more expensive to build and because those boats are designed for Ocean downwind sailing and that is just not the type of sailing most sailors do. Going upwind a Pogo will not be faster and would be more uncomfortable. If the sea is rough, the Pogo will be slower than a good cruising racer. I have already refereed the case of a racing Pogo (class 40) that on the two last editions of the "Sydney-Hobart" (mostly am upwind race was slower than an almost standard First 40 (cruiser racer).

Also boats like the Pogo, to really enjoy their sailing potential, need to carry not too much load and that implies a kind of a spartan way of cruising ( a bit like a guy that prefers to cruise on a motorcycle than on a car). It will be a lot more fun but it is just not for most of the people.

There are however several cruising boats that are made around the Pogo idea of cruising. We have already talked about some and we will talk of more. There are one that is not so radical (better interior), it's fast and it is not as expensive as the others. Anyway you would have to pay for such a boat at leat more 50 000 euros than for a comparable Elan or Salona.


Quote:
Originally Posted by myocean View Post
I remember a review about the First 30 where the author wrote he was very astonished about the soft and comfortable upwind sailing which he said must be due to a very smart, improved hull design for this kind of (flat, wide transom) boat. So are there some interesting design improvements which can be expected for the real fast cruising boats in future?
Ulf
Yes, that's true and those improvements are already utilized on cruising boats, specially on performance cruising boats. That has to do mainly with the design of the bow and fine entries. Not so much on what we call pure cruising boats (Bavarias, Jeanneau and Beneteau) because their costumers will trade gladly that more comfortable (and faster) ride for a bigger front cabin.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 02-12-2011 at 08:30 AM.
PCP is offline  
post #665 of 6763 Old 02-12-2011 Thread Starter
PCP
Senior Member
 
PCP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,212
Thanks: 21
Thanked 104 Times in 87 Posts
Rep Power: 11
 
Hanse 400

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdw View Post
I'm going to be on one today. I'll let you know what i think.

A
Andrews,

We will be waiting for your impressions. I bet that you are going to like the ride. They have a good hull, a good Ballast/Displacement ratio, they are relatively fast and if made of epoxy they are stronger than similar boats and have a kind of Ikea interior, that is what I really dislike in that boat.

The sails and the rigging can vary a lot from boat to boat. They come with pretty basic sails and rigging (the winches are very small) are not expensive in the basic version but they have no comprehensive performance kit to upgrade the boat. Yes, they will upgrade the boat for you, bigger winches, traveler on the cockpit, good sails and so on, but at the end it is not an inexpensive boat anymore. I hate the gel-coat finish (very bright).

This is a boat that is near the end of its carrier (it is an old model that has been updated once) even if the hull is still a good hull. This year they presented a new bathing platform and a closed transom similar to the one from Dufour 40e.

As a sailing boat, if you can live with the interior that is quite practical and well laid, it can be a very good sailing boat, depending of the options of the boat. It is a boat that you can find used at good price and that is mainly because the difference of price between the one Hanse advertise and the real price of most boats, with all the extras id huge.

If you are thinking in buying a new one it can be a good option providing they offer you a 15% discount or more, since it is a boat that will be replaced soon. However, even so I would also check the new jeanneau 409 and the Dufour 405, both also good sailing boats and with a better interior.

















Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-23-2013 at 11:48 AM.
PCP is offline  
post #666 of 6763 Old 02-12-2011
Senior Member
 
bjung's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Blue Ridge
Posts: 473
Thanks: 5
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 7
 
I looked at the Hanse boats at Annapolis this year. Well laid out, nice german craftsmanship. I mentioned the potential knee jerk 24" low lifelines and the lack of decent bulwarks and properly space handholds, but the salesman informed me:"These boats are designed for the North Sea, one of the most treacherous bodies of water in the world, so it should be good enough for the US!" Well, next stop HR, and let's see what the Swedes consider appropriate for offshore work.
I guess everyone has differrent uses and expectations.
bjung is offline  
post #667 of 6763 Old 02-12-2011 Thread Starter
PCP
Senior Member
 
PCP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,212
Thanks: 21
Thanked 104 Times in 87 Posts
Rep Power: 11
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjung View Post
I looked at the Hanse boats at Annapolis this year. Well laid out, nice german craftsmanship. I mentioned the potential knee jerk 24" low lifelines and the lack of decent bulwarks and properly space handholds, but the salesman informed me:"These boats are designed for the North Sea, one of the most treacherous bodies of water in the world, so it should be good enough for the US!" Well, next stop HR, and let's see what the Swedes consider appropriate for offshore work.
I guess everyone has differrent uses and expectations.
Yes, the Hanse 400 can be prepared for offshore us. In my opinion it has the necessary basic requirements, but as most of the people use those boats for coastal cruising the boat comes not equipped for that use (it would be more expensive). Any knowledgeable dealer can equip the boat for that purpose.

Bulwarks offer you a deceptive sensation of safety. If the boat is caught by a breaker the added area will offer more surface to the wave and instead of a waving passing over the boat you will have a boat pushed by a wave with an increasing capsize risk.

Most of the Germans use their boats on the Baltic that is a semi protected sea and has nothing to do with the North Sea.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 02-12-2011 at 10:06 AM.
PCP is offline  
post #668 of 6763 Old 02-12-2011
Senior Member
 
bjung's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Blue Ridge
Posts: 473
Thanks: 5
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 7
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post

Bulwarks offer you a deceptive sensation of safety. If the boat is caught by a breaker the added area will offer more surface to the wave and instead of a waving passing over the boat you will have a boat pushed by a wave with an increasing capsize risk.
Paolo,
I am sure, you will agree, that the type of capsize risk you are describing has nothing to do with bulwarks, but total freeboard. So, correct, adding higher bulwarks to the already high freeboard on a Hanse would have negative consequences, but most cruising boat designers will work down from a desired freeboard.
Bernd
bjung is offline  
post #669 of 6763 Old 02-12-2011 Thread Starter
PCP
Senior Member
 
PCP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,212
Thanks: 21
Thanked 104 Times in 87 Posts
Rep Power: 11
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjung View Post
Paolo,
I am sure, you will agree, that the type of capsize risk you are describing has nothing to do with bulwarks, but total freeboard. So, correct, adding higher bulwarks to the already high freeboard on a Hanse would have negative consequences, but most cruising boat designers will work down from a desired freeboard.
Bernd
Bernd,

I agree, that was what I wanted to mean.

All boats are compromises, Hanse has the typical high freeboard of a cruiser boat ( I guess that even so not so higher than a Beneteau, for instance).

They have that high freeboard to maximize interior space and because clients of that kind of boat will trade that higher freeboard for that extra hight. If they add bulwarks the frontal surface of the boat would be even bigger.

Regarding design and freeboard, that's one of the reasons I prefer what is normally called cruiser racers. The clients of that type of boats (me included) will gladly accept a lesser higher interior for a smaller freeboard.

Regards

Paulo
PCP is offline  
post #670 of 6763 Old 02-12-2011
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 290
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 5
 
There seems to be a Pogo 12.50 report in the February issue of "Voiles et Voiliers". It seems not to be available online but has anybody read it?
myocean is offline  
Closed Thread

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.


User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (0 members and 2 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cruising sailboats for sale welch Cruising & Liveaboard Forum 10 04-25-2012 05:20 PM
THE Yacht Builder List T37Chef Boat Review and Purchase Forum 26 07-08-2011 05:51 AM
Noob wonderings and questions about sailing, life at sail and sailboats Vans General Discussion (sailing related) 49 06-20-2011 12:18 AM
A List of ALL sailboats made with layouts? Myblueheaven Boat Review and Purchase Forum 8 10-08-2010 11:32 AM
Failure to Navigate - interesting post on Panbo Blog & from the NewsReader Mass Bay Sailors 0 12-11-2006 06:15 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome