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  #661  
Old 02-11-2011
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Paulo,

Thanks for the catch up.

I had a quick look but didn't see anything in this thread...have we discussed the Hanse 400 ?
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  #662  
Old 02-11-2011
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I'm going to be on one today. I'll let you know what i think.

A
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  #663  
Old 02-12-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
On a boat like the Pogo 12.50, the boat starts planing at 12K. It means that at 12K it is already over hull speed. With 30K wind the boat is very light over the water and doing 17K or a bit more. At speed the boat is very stable (speed also increases stability). Its large transom prevents the rolling motion you find on the older boat and you can leave it on autopilot even when you go to sleep. As a bonus you have over the deck a lot less wind (probably 15K or so).
Hi Paulo!

If this is really so great (and you know I am a fan of the Pogos), why are there not more such boats on the market? Some other boat builders show that even lightweight boats can have a reasonable (better) comfort inside. Combining these features should be great.
So is Pogo Structures just the first of some more (and better) to come? Are the Pogo's ahead of time?

Or do people just not like such a performance?
Or are there more relevant disadvantages like noisiness, bumpy upwind rides, ...

I remember a review about the First 30 where the author wrote he was very astonished about the soft and comfortable upwind sailing which he said must be due to a very smart, improved hull design for this kind of (flat, wide transom) boat. So are there some interesting design improvements which can be expected for the real fast cruising boats in future?
Ulf
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  #664  
Old 02-12-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myocean View Post
Hi Paulo!

If this is really so great (and you know I am a fan of the Pogos), why are there not more such boats on the market? Some other boat builders show that even lightweight boats can have a reasonable (better) comfort inside. Combining these features should be great.
So is Pogo Structures just the first of some more (and better) to come? Are the Pogo's ahead of time?

Or do people just not like such a performance?
Or are there more relevant disadvantages like noisiness, bumpy upwind rides, ...
Hi Ulf!

Yes , Pogo were ahead of its time, but that was 10 years ago. Know there are many cruising boats that have followed what has been learned on racing oceanic boats with short crew (or solo) from the past 20 Years.

The reason why you don't see them on mass production boats (Elan seems to be an exception) is because those boats are more expensive to build and because those boats are designed for Ocean downwind sailing and that is just not the type of sailing most sailors do. Going upwind a Pogo will not be faster and would be more uncomfortable. If the sea is rough, the Pogo will be slower than a good cruising racer. I have already refereed the case of a racing Pogo (class 40) that on the two last editions of the "Sydney-Hobart" (mostly am upwind race was slower than an almost standard First 40 (cruiser racer).

Also boats like the Pogo, to really enjoy their sailing potential, need to carry not too much load and that implies a kind of a spartan way of cruising ( a bit like a guy that prefers to cruise on a motorcycle than on a car). It will be a lot more fun but it is just not for most of the people.

There are however several cruising boats that are made around the Pogo idea of cruising. We have already talked about some and we will talk of more. There are one that is not so radical (better interior), it's fast and it is not as expensive as the others. Anyway you would have to pay for such a boat at leat more 50 000 euros than for a comparable Elan or Salona.


Quote:
Originally Posted by myocean View Post
I remember a review about the First 30 where the author wrote he was very astonished about the soft and comfortable upwind sailing which he said must be due to a very smart, improved hull design for this kind of (flat, wide transom) boat. So are there some interesting design improvements which can be expected for the real fast cruising boats in future?
Ulf
Yes, that's true and those improvements are already utilized on cruising boats, specially on performance cruising boats. That has to do mainly with the design of the bow and fine entries. Not so much on what we call pure cruising boats (Bavarias, Jeanneau and Beneteau) because their costumers will trade gladly that more comfortable (and faster) ride for a bigger front cabin.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 02-12-2011 at 08:30 AM.
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  #665  
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Hanse 400

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Originally Posted by tdw View Post
I'm going to be on one today. I'll let you know what i think.

A
Andrews,

We will be waiting for your impressions. I bet that you are going to like the ride. They have a good hull, a good Ballast/Displacement ratio, they are relatively fast and if made of epoxy they are stronger than similar boats and have a kind of Ikea interior, that is what I really dislike in that boat.

The sails and the rigging can vary a lot from boat to boat. They come with pretty basic sails and rigging (the winches are very small) are not expensive in the basic version but they have no comprehensive performance kit to upgrade the boat. Yes, they will upgrade the boat for you, bigger winches, traveler on the cockpit, good sails and so on, but at the end it is not an inexpensive boat anymore. I hate the gel-coat finish (very bright).

This is a boat that is near the end of its carrier (it is an old model that has been updated once) even if the hull is still a good hull. This year they presented a new bathing platform and a closed transom similar to the one from Dufour 40e.

As a sailing boat, if you can live with the interior that is quite practical and well laid, it can be a very good sailing boat, depending of the options of the boat. It is a boat that you can find used at good price and that is mainly because the difference of price between the one Hanse advertise and the real price of most boats, with all the extras id huge.

If you are thinking in buying a new one it can be a good option providing they offer you a 15% discount or more, since it is a boat that will be replaced soon. However, even so I would also check the new jeanneau 409 and the Dufour 405, both also good sailing boats and with a better interior.

















Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-23-2013 at 11:48 AM.
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  #666  
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I looked at the Hanse boats at Annapolis this year. Well laid out, nice german craftsmanship. I mentioned the potential knee jerk 24" low lifelines and the lack of decent bulwarks and properly space handholds, but the salesman informed me:"These boats are designed for the North Sea, one of the most treacherous bodies of water in the world, so it should be good enough for the US!" Well, next stop HR, and let's see what the Swedes consider appropriate for offshore work.
I guess everyone has differrent uses and expectations.
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  #667  
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I looked at the Hanse boats at Annapolis this year. Well laid out, nice german craftsmanship. I mentioned the potential knee jerk 24" low lifelines and the lack of decent bulwarks and properly space handholds, but the salesman informed me:"These boats are designed for the North Sea, one of the most treacherous bodies of water in the world, so it should be good enough for the US!" Well, next stop HR, and let's see what the Swedes consider appropriate for offshore work.
I guess everyone has differrent uses and expectations.
Yes, the Hanse 400 can be prepared for offshore us. In my opinion it has the necessary basic requirements, but as most of the people use those boats for coastal cruising the boat comes not equipped for that use (it would be more expensive). Any knowledgeable dealer can equip the boat for that purpose.

Bulwarks offer you a deceptive sensation of safety. If the boat is caught by a breaker the added area will offer more surface to the wave and instead of a waving passing over the boat you will have a boat pushed by a wave with an increasing capsize risk.

Most of the Germans use their boats on the Baltic that is a semi protected sea and has nothing to do with the North Sea.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 02-12-2011 at 10:06 AM.
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  #668  
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Bulwarks offer you a deceptive sensation of safety. If the boat is caught by a breaker the added area will offer more surface to the wave and instead of a waving passing over the boat you will have a boat pushed by a wave with an increasing capsize risk.
Paolo,
I am sure, you will agree, that the type of capsize risk you are describing has nothing to do with bulwarks, but total freeboard. So, correct, adding higher bulwarks to the already high freeboard on a Hanse would have negative consequences, but most cruising boat designers will work down from a desired freeboard.
Bernd
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Old 02-12-2011
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Paolo,
I am sure, you will agree, that the type of capsize risk you are describing has nothing to do with bulwarks, but total freeboard. So, correct, adding higher bulwarks to the already high freeboard on a Hanse would have negative consequences, but most cruising boat designers will work down from a desired freeboard.
Bernd
Bernd,

I agree, that was what I wanted to mean.

All boats are compromises, Hanse has the typical high freeboard of a cruiser boat ( I guess that even so not so higher than a Beneteau, for instance).

They have that high freeboard to maximize interior space and because clients of that kind of boat will trade that higher freeboard for that extra hight. If they add bulwarks the frontal surface of the boat would be even bigger.

Regarding design and freeboard, that's one of the reasons I prefer what is normally called cruiser racers. The clients of that type of boats (me included) will gladly accept a lesser higher interior for a smaller freeboard.

Regards

Paulo
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There seems to be a Pogo 12.50 report in the February issue of "Voiles et Voiliers". It seems not to be available online but has anybody read it?
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