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  #671  
Old 02-13-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdw View Post
I'm going to be on one today. I'll let you know what i think.

A
I actually don't mind the Hanse 400 at all.....

How did you go TD??
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  #672  
Old 02-14-2011
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Pogo 12.50 boat speeds test

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Originally Posted by myocean View Post
There seems to be a Pogo 12.50 report in the February issue of "Voiles et Voiliers". It seems not to be available online but has anybody read it?
Andrews seems to have liked that Hanse so much that he is still sailing it

About that test: They have loved sailing the boat, so much that the tester didn't want to let go the tiller and passed most of the night steering (20K wind)

Some measured speeds:

8KW at 45ºTW = 6.8K

14KW at 45ºTW = 8.0K

20K at 90ºTW (with ass. spy) = 9.7K

15K at 120ºTW (with ass. spy) = 10.4K

20K at 120º (with ass. spy) = 12.5K

They have made on that trip a 10K average speed on 170nm, going most of the time downwind.

He says only nice things about the boat (safety while sailing, big pleasure, good cruising interior) but asks himself the central question: Would that boat have the space for having all the stuff he likes to have while cruising? No... but that is not a real question because this boat should never sailed with any considerable charge.

A motorcycle, I am telling you and not with a negative sense. I have cruised the twisting roads of Europe with a Triumph 900. Me and my wife, on voyages that sometimes took a full month.

I had loved it, but you have to have the spirit for that and live in a very spartan way. Today I cruise on a small roadster that can carry about the double of what the motorcycle could carry. Some would say that we are still crazy (most of my wife's friends) but I can tell you that I have the same pleasure in a slightly less spartan way.

But that "slightly", makes a lot of difference

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-23-2013 at 11:50 AM.
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  #673  
Old 02-14-2011
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Paulo,

The 400 is actually in its mk III form although all versions use the same hull and very similar interior layouts. The revamp from MkII to MkIII was more thorough than MkI to MkII. The boat we looked at was a MkII.

In general.....

To be honest we came to the 400 by default. The Wombet and I had decided that for various reasons we needed to look at boats that were relatively easy to handle.

As I've talked about previously the Dehler DS41 is , of the reasonably priced production boats, pretty close to my ultimate but unfortunately only a couple of them ever came to Australia, indeed only 100 or so were ever built, the majority of which are in Europe. I believe from talking with the US distributor of Dehler that less than ten ever made it across the Atlantic. Other Dehlers are more numerous but not in Australia and they are seriously expensive down here. At this moment only one Dehler is for sale in Australia and she has a long racing and charter history so she may well be a bit tired.

So......looking around I found a Hanse 411 for sale in Queensland. Now this is an older boat (the forerunner to the 400) and the basic design appealed to us. The negative was a shoal keel with 5'1" (1.5m) draft. Standard keel on the 411 was 6'5" (2.0m). 2m is as deep as I'd go in a cruising boat but 1.5m seems a bit shallow to me.

Which led me to look at the more common H400. Including the 411 there are as many 40' Hanses in Australia as there were Dehler DS41s built world wide.

For me the H400 is something of a curate's egg....good in parts. In the two cabin, extended galley, single head MkI version she is I think for us a good boat. Losing the third cabin gives you a massive cockpit locker that is also accessible from the galley. Partitioned and with storage bins or baskets the f'ward section would make a great pantry with the aft section still having plenty of room for sails and other cruising essentials. Second cabin is to port and when fitted with lee clothes gives, along with the main settee, two decent sea berths plus space under the cockpit for life raft stowage.

Head, quite acceptably sized for two people, is also aft. Fitted with a folding shower screen that is obviously someone's idea of a joke. The shower space would be bloody useless if you close the screen and while I am tallish I am not a large frame.

F'ward cabin has a good sized berth with room to sleep feet aft. This is a must have feature for us. We both like sleeping up front but I have had it with the cramped nature of most v-berths.

We like our food, we like to cook. In the H400 MkI twin the galley is a beauty. Plenty of space for two people is need be, twin sinks on centre line, fridge that is both top and front loading, space for a three burner range. The three cabin and all the MkIIs make do with a far less acceptable galley and that's a deal killer for us.

I think its also fair to emphasise that the H400 is not a truly acceptable cruising alternative for most people particularly those with a family or who intend carrying more than two people for any length of time nor for those thiking of long ocean voyages. They simply do not have the cargo carrying capacity of heavier displacement boats. Our cruising ideal is based on mainly coastal and/or short ocean hops where we would spend a few weeks out of the loop followed by a week in port. The 400 is capable of handling this where her crew is just two. Beyond that you would simply run out of fresh/refigerated food and be relying on tinned and processed plus whatever the sea gives up.

I'd note that from the moment you go below until you are in the f'ward cabin you are never out of reach of a handhold. Giving the voluminous nature of the main cabin you would need them in any sort of seway.

Up top the 400 is pretty impressive though in standard form woefully lacking in cruising niceties. No dodger, no bimini, no cockpit covers. Mk II is completely open at the stern, has huge single wheel and nowhere for the helmsman to comfortably sit. The MkI had aft end of cockpit enclosed with an opening gate/helmsman seat, the MIII a fold up boarding platform with twin wheels. For cruising the MkII version would be awful. General cockpit comfort however is excellent. When fitted with a dodger and cushions one could hunker down in that cockpit in comfort and splendour. With drop sides and a full cockpit awning it also becomes a pilot house.

Which brings me to windage. One friend has commented to me re the 400's freeboard. At first I disagreed with him but it is true to say that she has pretty high freeboard, a trait shared with quite a few of her modern brethren it would appear. Will she dance the fandango at anchor ? Quite possibly. Keeping the anchor away from that stright stem might be challenging as well.

Beyond the cockpit comfort on deck is good. Paulo has noted that winches seem somewhat undersized and I'd tend to agree with him though self tacking headsail does away with the need for large sheet winches unless you intend to carry a non self tacking genoa. Personally I would probably add a couple of extra larger sheet winches for which mounting points are provided. All other controls are back to cockpit and sensibly laid out. Sailing this boat single handed would be a doddle.

F'ward of the cockpit, cabin top grab rails are shorter than I'd like but from the cockpit, if fitted with grab rails on the dodger it is quite easy to move forward keeping a good hold, perhaps surprisingly so. At least until you reach the mast. Beyond that you enter uncharted territory, not uncommon on many boats it must be said and with the self tacker and headsail furler there is no pressing need to go up front in less than perfect conditions.

Performance wise the 400 would be an adequate club racer I'd guess but I doubt you'd be up the pointy end of the fleet. Good boat for a twilight race though. As a cruiser I'd reckon she'd make rapid passages in a fair degree of comfort. I'd not like to take one round Cape Horn on a bad day but then I have no intention of doing so no matter what the boat. 400s have completed the Sydney to Hobart race, one even ending up with a 9th overall so they are capable enough. Me I'd be keeping a close eye on the weather before heading out to cross Bass Strait.

So there you go.

411..





400 MkII







400 MkI






MKI

Used Hanse 400e for Sale | Yachthub

MkII

Used Hanse 400e for Sale | Yachthub

411

Used Hanse 411 for Sale | Yachthub
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Last edited by tdw; 02-14-2011 at 06:08 PM. Reason: Mucked up the image files
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  #674  
Old 02-14-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Hey Andrew those two used Hanse's are pretty expensive if we compare prices with used boats in Europe. How much costs a new Hanse 400 there? Do you pay some big tax or Vat on boats that justifies that price? Or is it the transport? How much is the costs you pay on boat transport (from Europe) on a new boat?

Regards

Paulo
Paulo,

Late last year the cost of a new H400e was just over AUD$300.000.

As an indication it costs around AUD25.000 to bring a 40'er from Europe to Australia to which needs to be added 5% import duty and 10% GST. It does even things out to some extent but it is still probably worthwhile to buy in Europe and ship to Australia. The main drawback is that one needs to travel to Europe to inspect prospective boats. Not that I don't enjoy travelling to Europe, I love the place, but it is an expensive exercise.

Importing from the US is a little easier if only because of a free trade agreement which removes the import duty and if shipping from West Coast cost is marginally lower.

Of course there is always the temptation to sail a boat back from the US to Australia. Not such a tempting prospect to sail from Europe. Reality is that it is probably a pipe dream to even think I would sail home from either Europe or America.
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  #675  
Old 02-14-2011
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http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...g_id=1295&url=


Here is a H411 near me Andrew. $189K US. Do not know the exchange rate currently. I could swing by and take a peak if you like. There is one other 411/400 used for sale here in the US, on the east coast, with a sold on it, that one is also epoxy hulled.

Wife likes the Hanse's when we have been aboard them during the local boat shows. The dealer for the Salish sea is up in Vancouver BC.

Marty
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  #676  
Old 02-15-2011
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Andrew,

You were wondering if the higher freeboard might make the Hanse more prone to drifting at anchor. I would say probably/maybe. A friend of mine a few weeks back mentioned he drifted a lot anchoring until he went with 70-80' of chain and a size or two larger anchor. Now he has a pile of chain on the ground, boat does not drift as much.... He lets out the chain so it is just in the water, ties off the rope rode, he gets a good nights sleep. He usually stays in 20-30' of water, so this works out well for him. If you are deeper, a bit more chain...... Any way, a number of ways to stop the sailing around at anchor. maybe even a small stern anchor!

Marty
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  #677  
Old 02-15-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
Andrew,

You were wondering if the higher freeboard might make the Hanse more prone to drifting at anchor. I would say probably/maybe. ...
I guess drifting in this case is to swing around about 45º to each side of the anchor line?

All light modern boats do that. The Hanse has a smaller freeboard than many other cruiser boats (Dehler 41Ds, Beneteau (Oceanis), Jeanneau DS, Elan cruiser series and so on).

That happened noticeably on my Bavaria till the moment I have rigged a small dedicated back stabilizing sail. Since than I had no more problems. Not only the swinging was much reduced as the boat under heavy winds put a noticeable less strain on the chain (the boat is not moving forward, but you can see the chain slack a bit each time the boat swings).

Regards

Paulo
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  #678  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
A motorcycle, I am telling you and not with a negative sense.
So it seems to be time to list all the weight of parts required.
Are there any overviews with typical weights available? (for extra equipment such as solar panels, radar, autopilot, watermaker, radio/antenna, ... )
Food, water, fuel and personal effects are relatively easy to determine.

The Pogo 12.50 should be fine with 1-1.5 tons, crew included, right?
Ulf
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  #679  
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On design boat speed and weight

Quote:
Originally Posted by myocean View Post
So it seems to be time to list all the weight of parts required.
Are there any overviews with typical weights available? (for extra equipment such as solar panels, radar, autopilot, watermaker, radio/antenna, ... )
Food, water, fuel and personal effects are relatively easy to determine.

The Pogo 12.50 should be fine with 1-1.5 tons, crew included, right?
Ulf
Ulf,

What makes the Pogo special is the small wind speed that it needs to make it start to plane downwind. The wind speed the boat needs to plane rapidly increases with weight.

The boat would be alright with 1/1.5 T of weight and it will still be a fast boat, but nothing compared with the boat in light condition.

I would say that anything more than 500kg (food, personal items) would have a very significant effect on the boat performance. Even full tanks and empty tanks will make a difference.

For cruising extensively with this boat (sailing the way the boat was designed to sail) you need to have really a special mind set, the kind of the one you find on guys that like to cruise extensively on a motorcycle. That means a very sportive and spartan way of life.

I would say that on a boat like the salona 41 the performances would be less affected by a superior carrying weight, but even here I am talking about 1T for crew, food and personal items (and that is also on the sportive/spartan side for many cruisers).

If you want to go relatively fast with a more considerable load go with a RM 1200. Of course you will never go at the same speed that any of the other boats can offer, but the extra weight will be less noticeable on the RM 1200 performance.

If you need to carry 1.5 T and want a really fast boat that can carry it without being too much affected, than you need a bigger performance cruiser, like the Salona 44, the Elan 45, the First 45 or the Pogo 50.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-23-2013 at 11:52 AM.
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Hanse 400

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Originally Posted by tdw View Post
Paulo,

The 400 is actually in its mk III form although all versions use the same hull and very similar interior layouts. The revamp from MkII to MkIII was more thorough than MkI to MkII. The boat we looked at was a MkII.

In general.....

To be honest we came to the 400 by default. The Wombet and I had decided that for various reasons we needed to look at boats that were relatively easy to handle.

As I've talked about previously the Dehler DS41 is , of the reasonably priced production boats, pretty close to my ultimate but unfortunately only a couple of them ever came to Australia, indeed only 100 or so were ever built, the majority of which are in Europe. I believe from talking with the US distributor of Dehler that less than ten ever made it across the Atlantic. Other Dehlers are more numerous but not in Australia and they are seriously expensive down here. At this moment only one Dehler is for sale in Australia and she has a long racing and charter history so she may well be a bit tired.

So......looking around I found a Hanse 411 for sale in Queensland. Now this is an older boat (the forerunner to the 400) and the basic design appealed to us. The negative was a shoal keel with 5'1" (1.5m) draft. Standard keel on the 411 was 6'5" (2.0m). 2m is as deep as I'd go in a cruising boat but 1.5m seems a bit shallow to me.

Which led me to look at the more common H400. Including the 411 there are as many 40' Hanses in Australia as there were Dehler DS41s built world wide.

For me the H400 is something of a curate's egg....good in parts. In the two cabin, extended galley, single head MkI version she is I think for us a good boat. Losing the third cabin gives you a massive cockpit locker that is also accessible from the galley. Partitioned and with storage bins or baskets the f'ward section would make a great pantry with the aft section still having plenty of room for sails and other cruising essentials. Second cabin is to port and when fitted with lee clothes gives, along with the main settee, two decent sea berths plus space under the cockpit for life raft stowage.

Head, quite acceptably sized for two people, is also aft. Fitted with a folding shower screen that is obviously someone's idea of a joke. The shower space would be bloody useless if you close the screen and while I am tallish I am not a large frame.

F'ward cabin has a good sized berth with room to sleep feet aft. This is a must have feature for us. We both like sleeping up front but I have had it with the cramped nature of most v-berths.

We like our food, we like to cook. In the H400 MkI twin the galley is a beauty. Plenty of space for two people is need be, twin sinks on centre line, fridge that is both top and front loading, space for a three burner range. The three cabin and all the MkIIs make do with a far less acceptable galley and that's a deal killer for us.

I think its also fair to emphasise that the H400 is not a truly acceptable cruising alternative for most people particularly those with a family or who intend carrying more than two people for any length of time nor for those thiking of long ocean voyages. They simply do not have the cargo carrying capacity of heavier displacement boats. Our cruising ideal is based on mainly coastal and/or short ocean hops where we would spend a few weeks out of the loop followed by a week in port. The 400 is capable of handling this where her crew is just two. Beyond that you would simply run out of fresh/refigerated food and be relying on tinned and processed plus whatever the sea gives up.

I'd note that from the moment you go below until you are in the f'ward cabin you are never out of reach of a handhold. Giving the voluminous nature of the main cabin you would need them in any sort of seway.

Up top the 400 is pretty impressive though in standard form woefully lacking in cruising niceties. No dodger, no bimini, no cockpit covers. Mk II is completely open at the stern, has huge single wheel and nowhere for the helmsman to comfortably sit. The MkI had aft end of cockpit enclosed with an opening gate/helmsman seat, the MIII a fold up boarding platform with twin wheels. For cruising the MkII version would be awful. General cockpit comfort however is excellent. When fitted with a dodger and cushions one could hunker down in that cockpit in comfort and splendour. With drop sides and a full cockpit awning it also becomes a pilot house.

Which brings me to windage. One friend has commented to me re the 400's freeboard. At first I disagreed with him but it is true to say that she has pretty high freeboard, a trait shared with quite a few of her modern brethren it would appear. Will she dance the fandango at anchor ? Quite possibly. Keeping the anchor away from that stright stem might be challenging as well.

Beyond the cockpit comfort on deck is good. Paulo has noted that winches seem somewhat undersized and I'd tend to agree with him though self tacking headsail does away with the need for large sheet winches unless you intend to carry a non self tacking genoa. Personally I would probably add a couple of extra larger sheet winches for which mounting points are provided. All other controls are back to cockpit and sensibly laid out. Sailing this boat single handed would be a doddle.

F'ward of the cockpit, cabin top grab rails are shorter than I'd like but from the cockpit, if fitted with grab rails on the dodger it is quite easy to move forward keeping a good hold, perhaps surprisingly so. At least until you reach the mast. Beyond that you enter uncharted territory, not uncommon on many boats it must be said and with the self tacker and headsail furler there is no pressing need to go up front in less than perfect conditions.

Performance wise the 400 would be an adequate club racer I'd guess but I doubt you'd be up the pointy end of the fleet. Good boat for a twilight race though. As a cruiser I'd reckon she'd make rapid passages in a fair degree of comfort. I'd not like to take one round Cape Horn on a bad day but then I have no intention of doing so no matter what the boat. 400s have completed the Sydney to Hobart race, one even ending up with a 9th overall so they are capable enough. Me I'd be keeping a close eye on the weather before heading out to cross Bass Strait.
..
Thanks Andrews, that was a nice post. I agree with almost everything except this:

"I think its also fair to emphasise that the H400 is not a truly acceptable cruising alternative for most people particularly those with a family or who intend carrying more than two people for any length of time nor for those thiking of long ocean voyages. They simply do not have the cargo carrying capacity of heavier displacement boats. Our cruising ideal is based on mainly coastal and/or short ocean hops where we would spend a few weeks out of the loop followed by a week in port. The 400 is capable of handling this where her crew is just two. Beyond that you would simply run out of fresh/refigerated food and be relying on tinned and processed plus whatever the sea gives up".

Yes that is true that the boat will not have the carrying capacity of a heavier sailing boats but I think they will be alright for a small family (2, 3 kids) even for an occasional ocean crossing (with the two cabin version). This boat has a bigger than average freezer, but I think that you are giving to much importance to refrigerated food. For hundreds of years men make several months passages without refrigerated food .

There are plenty of options, from lyophilized vegetables and dishes to old ways of preserving food. Those old ways have been disappearing except on old countries where this old recipes are today considered as delicacies. We have a lot of them: Rojões, Chanfana, Dried cod fish, Enguias de escabeche, dry cheeses and olive oil preserved or smoked special sausages are just some...and I know of some other delicacies from Spain, France and Germany...and my mouth is beginning to water

Many fruits can take all the journey if putted on nets and rice, pasta, potatoes and all kind of beans are always a good source of proteins. I guess that from the lyophilized food I would only carry fresh vegetables. I would keep the freezer mostly for fresh beer and fresh white wine .

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-23-2013 at 11:53 AM.
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