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  #681  
Old 02-15-2011
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Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...g_id=1295&url=


Here is a H411 near me Andrew. $189K US. Do not know the exchange rate currently. I could swing by and take a peak if you like. There is one other 411/400 used for sale here in the US, on the east coast, with a sold on it, that one is also epoxy hulled.

Wife likes the Hanse's when we have been aboard them during the local boat shows. The dealer for the Salish sea is up in Vancouver BC.

Marty
Hey Marty,
I did look at the advert for that one and to be honest it is a really impressive looking boat. Its one great flaw as far as we are concerned is the second head. Takes away half the stowage space in the f'ward cabin and to my mind makes the v-berth a tadge claustrophobic. Anywho, this is getting off topic....I'll PM you.
cheers
Andrew

ps - in reality I probably like the 411 more than the 400 and I find it interesting that late model 411s often carry a similar or even higher price than early model 400s.
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  #682  
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Originally Posted by myocean View Post
So it seems to be time to list all the weight of parts required.
Are there any overviews with typical weights available? (for extra equipment such as solar panels, radar, autopilot, watermaker, radio/antenna, ... )
Food, water, fuel and personal effects are relatively easy to determine.

The Pogo 12.50 should be fine with 1-1.5 tons, crew included, right?
Ulf

4 crew with gear and clothing about 600 kilos. Provisions for 4 for 2 weeks 250 kilos. Water tanks + on-board kit & "stuff" another 500 kilos.

Once the winds top 15 kts, I don't think the difference of a few hundred kilos will make a huge difference in speed. Below that you may lose some speed but you still have the fingertip touch on steerage, acceleration and feel of the boat.

That being said, I've spent a week cruising the Alps on a Buell with nothing more than a 25 liter sack strapped on the back. Made all the easier by having full leathers so other than a shirt and pair of shorts, toothbrush, underwear and deodorant, and a trusty credit card what else do you really need?! Same for sailing but I am a bit "rustic"....
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  #683  
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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Thanks Andrews, that was a nice post. I agree with almost everything except this:

"I think its also fair to emphasise that the H400 is not a truly acceptable cruising alternative for most people particularly those with a family or who intend carrying more than two people for any length of time nor for those thiking of long ocean voyages. They simply do not have the cargo carrying capacity of heavier displacement boats. Our cruising ideal is based on mainly coastal and/or short ocean hops where we would spend a few weeks out of the loop followed by a week in port. The 400 is capable of handling this where her crew is just two. Beyond that you would simply run out of fresh/refigerated food and be relying on tinned and processed plus whatever the sea gives up".

Yes that is true that the boat will not have the carrying capacity of a heavier sailing boats but I think they will be alright for a small family (2, 3 kids) even for an occasional ocean crossing (with the two cabin version). This boat has a bigger than average freezer, but I think that you are giving to much importance to refrigerated food. For hundreds of years men make several months passages without refrigerated food .

There are plenty of options, from lyophilized vegetables and dishes to old ways of preserving food. Those old ways have been disappearing except on old countries where this old recipes are today considered as delicacies. We have a lot of them: Rojões, Chanfana, Dried cod fish, Enguias de escabeche, dry cheeses and olive oil preserved or smoked special sausages are just some...and I know of some other delicacies from Spain, France and Germany...and my mouth is beginning to water

Many fruits can take all the journey if putted on nets and rice, pasta, potatoes and all kind of beans are always a good source of proteins. I guess that from the lyophilized food I would only carry fresh vegetables. I would keep the freezer mostly for fresh beer and fresh white wine .

Regards

Paulo
Hey...you are not allowed to disagree with me. Don't you know who I am ? Disagree with me and you'll end up being banned for life or at the very least taken out and keel hauled.

Paulo I take your point. For me and the Wombet such non refrigerated foodstuffs would not be a problem I assure you....mmmm Bacalao.....I've never eaten Rojões or Chanfana but looking at the recipes I'm sure I would be happy. Whenever we go away we always take a selection of meats (Jamon, Salami, Bacon) and dry cheeses (manchega for one). Buy in lumps and not sliced they'll keep forever if stored in a cool place. As you say many fruits and vegetables do keep for long periods if kept aired and/or cool, though I don't have much experience with freeze drying. Cryovac meat and it will keep for am amazing length of time. I do draw the line at chewing on strips of leather and eating ships biscuit.

Really I was speaking in general terms. Compared to many other cruising boats the Hanse is limited in storage capacity. As an example, some years back we nearly bought a Passport 42. Lovely old thing she was though hardly speedy. I would guess that her load carrying capacity would have been twice that of the Hanse, certainly she had twice the refrigeration capacity and all her lockers would have been twice the depth of the 400s. The Hanse we were on , which I thought was fairly typical actually had very little freezer capacity, not much more than the ability to make a few ice cubes. I've noticed that in the Hanse forums the long term cruisers usually install another freezer in the locker. Personally I would prefer little or no freezing capacity simply because of the energy consumed.

Europeans (and Asians) have a mentality that I think embraces naturally preserved foods more readily than Americans. Australians probably somewhere in the middle. Certainly for us the Hanse would have more than adequate capacity though I do suspect that the average American family (if there is such a thing) would not embrace the likes of Bacalao with much enthusiasm at all.

Cheers

Andrew
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Last edited by tdw; 02-15-2011 at 05:20 PM.
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  #684  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bb74 View Post
4 crew with gear and clothing about 600 kilos. Provisions for 4 for 2 weeks 250 kilos. Water tanks + on-board kit & "stuff" another 500 kilos.

Once the winds top 15 kts, I don't think the difference of a few hundred kilos will make a huge difference in speed. Below that you may lose some speed but you still have the fingertip touch on steerage, acceleration and feel of the boat.

That being said, I've spent a week cruising the Alps on a Buell with nothing more than a 25 liter sack strapped on the back. Made all the easier by having full leathers so other than a shirt and pair of shorts, toothbrush, underwear and deodorant, and a trusty credit card what else do you really need?! Same for sailing but I am a bit "rustic"....
Well, that's the spirit

BB,

I guess that that probably I have exaggerated. Let's say crew and 500kg of food and personal equipment. It also seems to me that you and your friends eat a lot . Something like 4.5kg a day/person. It must be the beer

Regards

Paulo
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  #685  
Old 02-16-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bb74 View Post
4 crew with gear and clothing about 600 kilos. Provisions for 4 for 2 weeks 250 kilos. Water tanks + on-board kit & "stuff" another 500 kilos.

Once the winds top 15 kts, I don't think the difference of a few hundred kilos will make a huge difference in speed. Below that you may lose some speed but you still have the fingertip touch on steerage, acceleration and feel of the boat.

That being said, I've spent a week cruising the Alps on a Buell with nothing more than a 25 liter sack strapped on the back. Made all the easier by having full leathers so other than a shirt and pair of shorts, toothbrush, underwear and deodorant, and a trusty credit card what else do you really need?! Same for sailing but I am a bit "rustic"....
This sounds more reasonable for me.
Yes, Paulo has may be exaggerated a bit... :-)

So I really think technical equipment will be the main part. And for a circumnavigation you need to take a bit more food with you (enough for may be 2 month?). Water can be reduced if you have a watermaker.
25 kg for the alps is quite a lot I think. I cycled through India for 5 weeks with just 7 kg on my back. But India is warm and a you can have a hotel room every night.
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  #686  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Well, that's the spirit

BB,

I guess that that probably I have exaggerated. Let's say crew and 500kg of food and personal equipment. It also seems to me that you and your friends eat a lot . Something like 4.5kg a day/person. It must be the beer

Regards

Paulo
2 litres of water to drink, a few beers, and food and that comes out to close to 4kg a day when all is said and done.
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  #687  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bb74 View Post
2 litres of water to drink, a few beers, and food and that comes out to close to 4kg a day when all is said and done.
On a boat like that you just screw a filter on the water tap and drink the water from the tanks, or, as Ulf said, just have a watermaker. That would mean almost half of the weight you are considering for food....and that is a lot. Two liters of water for 2 months, as Ulf is proposing for just 2 guys would be about 240kg, only for drinking water and that is a lot and most of all, it can be avoided.

Regards

Paulo
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  #688  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myocean View Post
This sounds more reasonable for me.
Yes, Paulo has may be exaggerated a bit... :-)

So I really think technical equipment will be the main part. And for a circumnavigation you need to take a bit more food with you (enough for may be 2 month?). Water can be reduced if you have a watermaker.
25 kg for the alps is quite a lot I think. I cycled through India for 5 weeks with just 7 kg on my back. But India is warm and a you can have a hotel room every night.
25 liter volume sack, but only about 5-6 kilos of kit in it at the time.

As for a circumnavigation on a Pogo 12.50, certainly feasible but I would look at what type of sailing and what type of visiting I would want to do and plan the boat accordingly. I know that if I were to head out long term, I would probably buy something a bit more comfy and with more carrying capacity.

For me the Pogo is great for extended (4-6) week cruises with 4 weeks of anchoring and 2 weeks of dockside living - say every 5-6 days tie up, fill the tanks, get a hot shower and eat out for a day or two. I don't think I'd want to live exclusively on a Pogo non-stop for 2 months. Can be done for sure, just not what I'd be looking for.
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  #689  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myocean View Post
...
So I really think technical equipment will be the main part. And for a circumnavigation you need to take a bit more food with you (enough for may be 2 month?). Water can be reduced if you have a watermaker.
25 kg for the alps is quite a lot I think. I cycled through India for 5 weeks with just 7 kg on my back. But India is warm and a you can have a hotel room every night.
It seems that both of you have passed the test regarding spartan spirit to cruise in the Pogo 12.50. Fact is that in what regards cruising it would be fine with me, even for extended cruising.

What the Pogo cannot offer is a comfortable ambiance for living aboard for extended periods of time and I want not only a boat for cruising but also as a "second home", and for that I find the Pogo to spartan for my taste. That's why I am dreaming with the Salona 41: Less expensive, fast (faster upwind slower downwind), with a bigger loading capacity and most of all, with a much more comfortable ambiance.

Funny that one of the things that comes to my mind is that in the Pogo, even with a good sound system, you would never get a decent sound. All that reflective plastic will make it impossible, and that for me is a big problem: I just love music and that is important for me (odd isn't it, I mean that it can be for me a decisive factor on a boat selection ).

But If I planned doing a fast circumnavigation perhaps I would have chosen the Pogo. On a mostly downwind affair, like a circumnavigation, there is simply no other boat that can be compared in price for speed, safety and fun of sailing.

Regards

Paulo
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  #690  
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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
On a boat like that you just screw a filter on the water tap and drink the water from the tanks, or, as Ulf said, just have a watermaker. That would mean almost half of the weight you are considering for food....and that is a lot. Two liters of water for 2 months, as Ulf is proposing for just 2 guys would be about 240kg, only for drinking water and that is a lot and most of all, it can be avoided.

Regards

Paulo
Fair point. A decent watermaker installed is going to add about 30 kg, and you will need to run the engine to power the batteries to run it as well. Probably need an extra battery "just in case" for another 15kilos. Probably 30 litres of diesel for the 2 months. Given you'd have at least "survival water on-board, say at least a weeks worth (30 kilos) you are now looking at 105 kilos. Overall it would save a bunch of weight to do it this way so the only possible upside of having on-board water is to use it as ballast if you are running offwind for extended periods of time.
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