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  #61  
Old 07-21-2010
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Tiller / Wheel

Quote:
Originally Posted by nemier View Post
My preference is a tiller. If my next vessel is sold with a wheel, I'll consider the expense of converting to a tiller, such is the strength of my desire for a tiller. However, the twin wheels are a different breed altogether, and this appeals to me. Therefore my personal preference is:
1. tiller
2. twin wheel
3. single wheel, (& as Cesar Milan says)...in that order.
(everybody) What's Your personal preference)?
Twin wheels from a mechanical point of view are more complicated than a single wheel. More cables, more drag, less sensitivity. What I want is twin rudders (on a large transom boat), not twin wheels. I want them by lots of reasons that have to do with efficiency and safety, but that is another story.

Regarding the wheel versus tiller. Tiller wins on simplicity, price and sensability. The wheel provides you with something you can hold on bad weather and gives you some support when the boat is going up and down on big waves. The choice, as Tdw as pointed out as to do also with the free space on the cockpit and with the rigging. A tiller permits you to reach farther, but takes away free space on the cockpit.

The reason that lead to twin wheels as to do with the transom increase in size. Modern boats have broader transom and beyond a certain width you can not sit on the side and reach the wheel, even if it is a big one (not to mention the ability to reach the winch with a hand on the wheel).

The size that justifies two wheels depends on the transom width, but it is around 40ft.

On boats with relatively narrow beams and transom (for modern design) you can still have one wheel (First 40, Elan 410) but on boats with large transom that would be impossible (Pogo 12.50, Opium 39).

Twin wheels have became a "fashion" and lots of boats that don't need twin wheels (smaller boats) now offer them as standard items (for comercial purposes). It is true that in what concerns access to the cockpit, a twin whell offers advantages, but that as nothing to do with efficiency and it is only understandable in an oriented cruising boat, not in a performance one.

Besides the efficiency problem you will have another problem with the localization of boat's instruments. Some brands just double everything, from the compass to the wind, speed and depth instruments. More expense and more complication.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-22-2013 at 11:01 AM.
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  #62  
Old 07-21-2010
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Zeydon 60

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdw View Post
and can anyone identify this ?

That's a Zeydon 60.

Zeydon

With that price tag there is boats that I like more.
Dreaming has no price , so when I have time I will post about them.

Take a look at this one. It will be probably affordable for a guy that has the money for a 50ft. It is a new "luxury" line by Benetau. The hull seems modern and the boat will be faster than the Oceanis. The interior is European "chick". It is well designed, but I don't like it. I like boat's interiors to look like boat's interiors, not like some small luxury apartment

Take a look at the video:

http://sense.beneteau.com/defaultProduit.aspx

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-22-2013 at 11:02 AM.
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  #63  
Old 07-21-2010
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Gerard Dykstra, K&M and Bestevaer

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdw View Post
..
ps (edit)....Absurdly expensive even when compared to the Luffe but i've always felt these things were pretty cool.....

2008 K&M Yachtbuilders Bestewind Bestewind 50 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com



(thats big sister btw...Bestevaer 53)
Those are Gerard Dykstra designs. I love it. You know, the Bestevaer 53 looks old beautiful , expensive, heavy with a long keel and slow but that's a false image.

The only thing that remains true from that image is that it is beautiful and expensive . But It is also fast, light (aluminum) and has a modern underbody with a finn keel and a bulb.

From its designs I prefer the classical ones, with a proper boat interior, not some fancy luxury apartment imitation.

Look at this 50ft. I bet I can sail it solo and if you waste a lot of money in a boat, better travel with style, and style is a thing that this one has.

K&M Yachtbuilders

And if I was really rich and have a a big family that could crew the boat, then it will be this one. Look at the interior: That's what an interior of a boat should look like

http://www.kmy.nl/aluminium-sailing-yachts.php?page=km_jachten_bestevaer_11

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-22-2013 at 11:03 AM.
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  #64  
Old 07-22-2010
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Elan 350

Nice scenary.

Yes, but you work with those veicules. I work on my computer.

Boat talk:

The new Elan 350 (post 64) is on the water. It seems as nice as in the computer drawings.

Take a look at the Elan site , some articles and to a boring movie (No wind, the guy speaks Croatian, but we can have a good look at the boat ant it looks very interesting):

My Sailing: Elan 350 - Out in Front in Design, Performance and WOW Factor!

ELAN Marine - Sail - Sail Yachts

Elan 350

http://www.zlregata.com/e350_Portugues.ppt

Elan 350 - test | Sailtube

Sail-World.com : New Elan 350 - Out in front in design, performance and pure Wow!

Elan 350 | bilder | BLUR








Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-22-2013 at 11:04 AM.
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  #65  
Old 07-22-2010
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Pogo 12.50, Opium 39, Dufour 40e - Match

Marty, what do you think of the Elan 35?

Guys, on this thread we talked about the Pogo 12.50 and about the Opium 39. Some months ago I had read a boat test, an interesting compairison between the Opium 39, the Pogo 40 cruising (the model that is going to be upgraded as Pogo 12.50) and the new Dufour 40e. I found out that they had put the movie on internet.

Tell me : are not this all beautiful sailing Boats?


Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-22-2013 at 11:05 AM.
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  #66  
Old 07-23-2010
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Elan 350

Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
paulo,

IF I could afford the thing, and if the design specs allowed fully sailed single double handed sailing like Jeanneau's SF3200, or the pogo, frankly, probably the best option overall. Big enough to keep spouse happy, enough performance for myself. There is a Stealer.......OOOOPS..........Dealer in town. The E310 would also work, Bob Perry did a review in Sailing about a month ago, maybe two. Just got an August issue the other day, can not remember if it was in the July or June. July is ringing a bell.
You photos are the first I Have seen of the 350 interior and exterior. Interior might be a little plain for spouse, but some window treatments, showier seat cushions, different wall colour etc could give this part a kick in the pants.

Marty
Marty,
I am quite sure your wife will love the interior. This is among the fast boats the one that has a more functional interior, with lots of storage. It is also very agreeable. See what I post about it below.

If you want a full and very good test on the 31, PM me and send me your email.

Regards

Paulo

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdw View Post
butting in....I like the Elan 35. ... the interior is somewhat bland and I do not like the beige finish. Warm it up a bit and yeah, OK.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdw View Post

The big question I have re the Elan is why don't they make the windows in the hull bigger ? Now I know this is the DS lover speaking but I do not understand why they make the things so small. It cannot be strength. I don't believe for one minute that in this day and age glass cannot be every bit as strong as the other hull material. Is it simply the fact that just as in the airline world the consumers are uncomfortable with large openings ?

…..Having another look at the Elan...is that interior finish beigy paint or is it an almost pinky beige veneer ? Whatever it is I don't like it one bit.

... This obsession with light coloured interiors confuses me. Then again maybe I am a troll at heart.
....

That photo is a snapshot from the interior of a prototype. It is not by hazard that the guys from Elan did not post any interior photo on its site. It is probably because they consider that what they have is not up to their standards.

I agree with the you that this fashion to use light colored Oak on the interior is appalling. What I found odd is that there are certainly a lot of people that like it , otherwise it would not be a”fashion”. The interior is not painted, it is all wood.

Actually I find the Elans interiors to be the most agreeable of all performance boats (excluding the very expensive ones). The level of finish is good, just a bit under Dehler, but at the same level (perhaps better) than all the others, and the design is the best. Of course, I would not have said that if I was considering that photo. The light is very bad, the boat shows that it is a prototype, the color of the wood and fabric of seats is all wrong.

On the last years I have been several times inside Elan (380, 410, 450), as well as inside most of other similar sized cruiser racers and that is where I base my opinion.

The interior lighting is also good. If you look at the boat profile you will see that the lateral “window” is big and there are big hatches on the roof. Certainly they have more light than a Dufour a First or a Dehler. Again, the photo is misleading.

Take a look at the interior of the old 34. You can see that it is cozy and that the wood feels right. That is not the same wood (there are several wood interior options).

ELAN Marine

Try to look again at that interior photo (the one I have posted) and you can see that the interior design (taking away the bad finish, light and wrong colors) is actually a lot better than on the 34, with a small view to the scenery.

That interior seems to be midway between the one from the 340 and the one from the 380.

Take a look at the one from the 380 (again, wrong option of wood, in my opinion) but you can see that the design is ok, with lots of storage and the finish is good.


Regards


Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-22-2013 at 11:06 AM.
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  #67  
Old 07-23-2010
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ps (edit)....Absurdly expensive even when compared to the Luffe but i've always felt these things were pretty cool.....

2008 K&M Yachtbuilders Bestewind Bestewind 50 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com



(thats big sister btw...Bestevaer 53)

__________________________________

have a look at this puppy. If only the lotto would cooperate I'd be a happy camper

http://www.yachts.nl/#/sail

and look for the Dykstra (another Bestaever 20.04M)

(wiping the drool off the keyboard)
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  #68  
Old 07-23-2010
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Olivier Van Meer - Puffin and Zaca.

Since we are talking about classic yachts and Dutch naval architects, it is more than fair to talk about Olivier Van Meer and about its series, Puffin and Zaca.

I believe the ones that like classic boats are going to love it (I like them a lot ). My first boat was a true classic (more than 50 years old) .


Take a good look at theses sites, they are full of beautiful boats:

Olivier F. van Meer - Sail

Zeiljachten

Architecten - Puffin & Little Zaca Yachts (uk)

PuffinsUSA.com

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-22-2013 at 11:12 AM.
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  #69  
Old 07-23-2010
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Elan 350

Quote:
Originally Posted by bb74 View Post
hate the dual wheel system on the 35. Absolutely no reasonable need for this on that size boat and it kills the cockpit space once you arrive at destination.

My opinion, but the dual wheel tillers are an ego trip on smaller boats.

Otherwise it's a nice boat, well built and good performance.
I would also have preferred a single wheel (by the reasons I give on post 119) and maybe that comes as an option but I do not understand what you mean when you say that "it kills the cockpit space once you arrive at destination".

If that boat had not two wheels it would have to have a big wheel and that would make the passage between the front of the cockpit and the back more difficult. I will post an Elan 38 photo to explain what I mean:


Regards


Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-22-2013 at 11:12 AM.
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  #70  
Old 07-23-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I would also have preferred a single wheel (by the reasons I give on post 119) and maybe that comes as an option but I do not understand what you mean when you say that "it kills the cockpit space once you arrive at destination".
Paulo,
My guess is that BB74 is referring to the fact that the cockpit seats stop ahead of the wheels. I confess that anything under 2m in length is not good for me either...I'm a stretch out and have a sleep kind of guy....I'm a bit under 2m tall myself.

Yes the one huge wheel means the same end result but without the passage between the two wheels. Personally I'd rather have the cockpit seats come all the way aft and put up with a smaller wheel though I'm sure that would apall you red blooded racers.

As for the Puffin....drool. I remember there was one for sale on Yachtworld a year or so back. I had the images on my desktop for quite some time. Absolutely gorgeous thing and at 42' a more acceptable size than the Bestevaer but USD$600.000...oh dear.





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