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  #691  
Old 02-16-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bb74 View Post
... Overall it would save a bunch of weight to do it this way so the only possible upside of having on-board water is to use it as ballast if you are running offwind for extended periods of time.
Humm! on four pages they never talk about water ballast and they say this:

"that's the same hull of the racing boat...the bigger power of the S2 (racing version), that translates in about 0.5K close to the wind and 1K downwind, comes from the 750L of water ballast that you can find on the racing version....

The S2 has 40% more righting moment at 25ş of heel, and that's only on account of the water ballast"


So this boatt has no water ballast. I heard that they intended to have water ballast on this boat, but probably give up because of the price. I don't know if they can have it as an extra, but they say that this boat costs in its basic version, that is really very basic: 186 000€ and that the cost of the boat that was tested was 235 000 € (without taxs) and that is already a lot.

Compared to the Salona S41, the basic price of the Pogo is already 27 000€ euros more expensive and the Salona comes, as a standard boat, with much more equipment. If you equipped the boats similarly I guess that difference in price should be around 35 000€ or more.

And this is without taking into consideration discounts. For what I have heard Pogo was a no discount policy while on a Salona it is expected to have some discount. To give you an idea, Salona was offering to the ones that bought the boats on the winter boat shows big discounts on the boat packages of equipment. If you bought the three basic packages: Ready to sail; Performance; comfort; you will end up with a very well equipped boat with a 15 600€ discount.

All in all, it is a lot of money more for a boat faster downwind and slower upwind, with a less comfortable interior and a lesser carrying capacity.

Let me say that I understand you guys, I have said that if I was making a circumnavigation and if I had the extra money I probably would go with the Pogo. But the Pogo is a passion choice, not a rational one. But I am not saying that sail and owning a boat has anything of rational . Not me, I have made the Mats and it is a lot cheaper to charter a boat than having one (unless you chose to have an old boat).

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 02-16-2011 at 11:18 AM.
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  #692  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
What the Pogo cannot offer is a comfortable ambiance for living aboard for extended periods of time and I want not only a boat for cruising but also as a "second home", and for that I find the Pogo to spartan for my taste.
Aren't the people aboard the major factor regarding the atmosphere?


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That's why I am dreaming with the Salona 41: Less expensive, fast (faster upwind slower downwind), w
Really? How much faster?
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  #693  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bb74 View Post
Fair point. A decent watermaker installed is going to add about 30 kg, and you will need to run the engine to power the batteries to run it as well. Probably need an extra battery "just in case" for another 15kilos. Probably 30 litres of diesel for the 2 months. Given you'd have at least "survival water on-board, say at least a weeks worth (30 kilos) you are now looking at 105 kilos. Overall it would save a bunch of weight to do it this way so the only possible upside of having on-board water is to use it as ballast if you are running offwind for extended periods of time.
Well,
the watermaker gets powered by the same device the people from Barcelona World Race are using now (probably just the cruising version)
The hydrogenerator from Watt&Sea: Watt and Sea - L’hydrogénérateur - Une solution simple et efficace

Having the water as ballast is not very effective. You will rarely have 750 liters available and something like 200 will not help so much and even become less and less by the time. (I sailed on a Pogo 40 and really liked the 750 kg :-) )
Additionally for water ballast you would need the same storage volume twice, on port and starboard but that space is very valuable.
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  #694  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Humm! on four pages they never talk about water ballast and they say this:

"that's the same hull of the racing boat...the bigger power of the S2 (racing version), that translates in about 0.5K close to the wind and 1K downwind, comes from the 750L of water ballast that you can find on the racing version....

The S2 has 40% more righting moment at 25ş of heel, and that's only on account of the water ballast"


So this boatt has no water ballast. I heard that they intended to have water ballast on this boat, but probably give up because of the price. I don't know if they can have it as an extra, but they say that this boat costs in its basic version, that is really very basic: 186 000€ and that the cost of the boat that was tested was 235 000 € (without taxs) and that is already a lot.

Compared to the Salona S41, the basic price of the Pogo is already 27 000€ euros more expensive and the Salona comes, as a standard boat, with much more equipment. If you equipped the boats similarly I guess that difference in price should be around 35 000€ or more.

And this is without taking into consideration discounts. For what I have heard Pogo was a no discount policy while on a Salona it is expected to have some discount. To give you an idea, Salona was offering to the ones that bought the boats on the winter boat shows big discounts on the boat packages of equipment. If you bought the three basic packages: Ready to sail; Performance; comfort; you will end up with a very well equipped boat with a 15 600€ discount.

All in all, it is a lot of money more for a boat faster downwind and slower upwind, with a less comfortable interior and a lesser carrying capacity.

Let me say that I understand you guys, I have said that if I was making a circumnavigation and if I had the extra money I probably would go with the Pogo. But the Pogo is a passion choice, not a rational one. But I am not saying that sail and owning a boat has anything of rational . Not me, I have made the Mats and it is a lot cheaper to charter a boat than having one (unless you chose to have an old boat).

Regards

Paulo
I agree with everything you said there. The 12.50 has no ballast system but the 40 S2 does.

On the economics, it makes little sense to own unless you are going to be sailing a minimum 3 months a year for 4-6 years. That's a pretty tough threshold to achieve while working, having a family, etc. Obviously, if you own, sailing all the destinations during that time is doubly difficult while if renting, it's a cheap flight and you're half way across the world discovering new stomping grounds.

I've given up on rationalizing a purchase, but it doesn't mean I wont buy a Pogo 10.50 in the mid term (3-5 years delivery). The beauty with boats like that is because there are no discounts and they are well built boats in demand, you can sell them pretty easily and at a very fair rate. Owning one will still cost you about 20K€ per year when all is said and done (without payments) and that is why ownership is a luxury. A 10.50 fitted out is going to be in the 195-210K€ range with tax, a 12.50 will be in the 250-270K€ range with tax. That's with top of the line sails, hardware, electronics, etc.

I've not done the detailed math compared to the others but I believe that the major impact on the ownership cost delta is the cost to finance that extra capital, not so much the actual € figure as you will get much of it back when you sell. I am fortunate to not have a "problem" either way in the event the resale market tanks. My only problem is I live a bit over 4 hours from the Med.
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  #695  
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Azuree 40

Paulo do you have any thoughts on the Azuree 40 as a fast cruiser?
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  #696  
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Originally Posted by RXBOT View Post
Paulo do you have any thoughts on the Azuree 40 as a fast cruiser?
Wow, great discovery!
May be a bit heavy but anyway...
The interior looks good!
199 square meter sail area downwind?!

Last edited by myocean; 02-16-2011 at 02:14 PM.
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  #697  
Old 02-16-2011
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I was thinking of posting about it. As you know it was one of the finalist of the European boat of the year. I will post about it soon. I have read some tests about it

Regards

Paulo
Paulo,
Now that is an interesting looking thing isn't it ? Look forward to your post. In the meantime.....Azuree
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  #698  
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After looking at the large number of reviews available on the website I think the Azuree is a fast boat, but it seems to have difficulties to get into planing like a Pogo
Even with quite some wind, speeds down wind are far away from the Pogo.
May be this is exactly the effect of 1-1.5 tons additional weight we discussed before?
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  #699  
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Azuree 40

Quote:
Originally Posted by myocean View Post
After looking at the large number of reviews available on the website I think the Azuree is a fast boat, but it seems to have difficulties to get into planing like a Pogo
Even with quite some wind, speeds down wind are far away from the Pogo.
May be this is exactly the effect of 1-1.5 tons additional weight we discussed before?
Exactly. The Azuree 40 is basically a Class 40 hull with a "normal" cruising interior, an heavy one. The basic version boat weights 1800Kg more than the Pogo and has a relatively big tankage for a boat with those characteristics (320L of water and 120L of fuel). This is a kind of boat that tries to make a "normal" boat out of a Pogo. Well, it has a better interior, but as you have said, it does not plane like a Pogo

Remember when you have asked why there was not more cruising boats like the Pogo and I have replied:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post

There are however several cruising boats that are made around the Pogo idea of cruising. We have already talked about some and we will talk of more. There are one that is not so radical (better interior), it's fast and it is not as expensive as the others. Anyway you would have to pay for such a boat at leat more 50 000 euros than for a comparable Elan or Salona.
Well, I has thinking about the Azuree 40

I had also said that :

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
....
The reason why you don't see them on mass production boats (Elan seems to be an exception) is because those boats are more expensive to build and because those boats are designed for Ocean downwind sailing and that is just not the type of sailing most sailors do. Going upwind a Pogo will not be faster and would be more uncomfortable. If the sea is rough, the Pogo will be slower than a good cruising racer. I have already refereed the case of a racing Pogo (class 40) that on the two last editions of the "Sydney-Hobart" (mostly am upwind race was slower than an almost standard First 40 (cruiser racer).

Also boats like the Pogo, to really enjoy their sailing potential, need to carry not too much load and that implies a kind of a spartan way of cruising ( a bit like a guy that prefers to cruise on a motorcycle than on a car). It will be a lot more fun but it is just not for most of the people.
This one carries a bigger load, so it is really a heavy motorcycle and heavy motorcycles give not so much fun to ride

They have another version, lighter that is called fast cruiser that uses some 50% of carbon and its lighter 200Kg. The tests I have read were with this version that has a 2.6m draft. The boat sails well.

I have saw the stability curve of that one and it was all right, but I don't need to see the one from the cruiser version to know that I would not have liked. The cruiser version has a reasonable draft of 2.1m but only more 50kg of ballast. Something wrong here, for having a similar curve the short keel boat should have several hundred kg more, not more 50kg . I would not have that one, neither the one with the 2.6M keel, because that's too much (even for me ) for cruising.

Besides I don't like the puffed look the boat has, like if it was a blown out Pogo. Don't like the chic trendy interior also. It is not the quality of the design but I don't found it adapted to a fast boat. It seems out of place to me.

As positive points you have a fast boat (yachting world says that it goes at 7K upwind and 10 downwind), specially downwind with a good cruising interior at a fair price. The fast cruising version costs 190 000 € and the "normal" cruising version 147 000 €, prices without taxes and without extras.

comments?

















Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-23-2013 at 11:56 AM.
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  #700  
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Quote:
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Really? How much faster?
Well, the Salona 41 is about as fast as the First 40 upwind. With flat water will just point a big higher but with waves it can make a very considerable difference, not to mention a much easier and comfortable motion

To have an idea of what that difference can be, take a look at the previous post, were it is refereed again that example of the Sydney Hobart race: First 40 versus Racing 40 Pogo. Remember that Pogo is a racing one, with water ballast and about more 40% righting moment than the Pogo 12.50 and that First 40 is basically a standard boat with the performance pack.

Regards

Paulo
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