Interesting Sailboats

[PCP]

Originally Posted by myocean

Can't you give a number Paulo?
Ulf

Standard boat 270 000€

Telescopic keel 35 000€
Epoxy hull and deck 25 000€
Carbon mast and retractable Bowsprit 28 100€
You can count with more 40 000€ of extras (for cruising) and about 20 000€ for a decent set of sails.

With taxes that we have to pay (about 20% VAT) that boat would cost me over 500 000€. That's the price of excellency

Regards

Paulo

[PCP]

Originally Posted by blt2ski

....

Glad to know that boat was a hit with the missus, too bad it is too expensive. ...
marty

Marty,

After visiting that boat we had taken another look at the Salona 41 and the Salona looks great even after the Finn Flyer. The boats have the same length, same hull shape. The Salona weights more 400kg has less 300kg of ballast, more 12cm of Beam and more 7m2 of sail. Both boats use hi-tech vacuum infusion and can be made with epoxy resins. The Salona uses a Stainless steel interior frame to rigidify the boat and to absorb all the efforts of the keel and from the shrouds.

I like the superior B/D of the Finn Flyer so I will add 300kg to Salona ballast (the shipyard will do it for a reasonably price). I would have a 700kg more heavy boat (with more 7m2 of sail) but also a very stiff boat that can carry full sail with a lot of wind and also a boat with a high AVS and a small inverted stability. Sure, now the Finn Flyer would be probably slightly faster, but I am no racer and the Salona will be a more forgiven boat (and with more wind and heavy sea it will be a more powerful boat and even faster than the standard version).

Even with the extra weight the Salona would be a very, very fast boat. Remember that the First 40 will still weight more 500kg and will have less 14m2 of sail.

The Salona has a good cruising interior, the materials are good even if they are far from the absolute perfection of the FinnFlyer. Most important (for me) is that my wife likes the interior, the storage space and the galley. She loves the two freezers one of them with a deep freezer storage space. The head has also a curtain (fixed on the roof) that permits to isolate the shower area and she is satisfied with that. The boat does not have a port hull (and she wants one) but they say that they can make one.

And the better part is that the Salona costs about half the price of the FinnFlyer I don't know if I can stretch my budget to cover that, but it is a lot of boat for the money and one that I am sure would fit all my needs: That boat is a pleasure machine and it will sail fast, nicely and safely on the med or on deep ocean. It will be comfortable at the marina or at anchor and will provide the pleasure of owning a very beautiful boat with an almost classical shape, one that will resist the test of time.













Yachting Life

http://www.salonayachts.nl/files/Nie...20features.pdf

Regards

Paulo

[blt2ski]

Faster,

The Jeanneau you saw was the SO409. I did not get a chance to get there and take a look, but may run by there in the next few days and take a peak at the dealer. The dealer is on the wet shore of Lake union about 1/2 to 3/4 of a mile north of where the on water part of the show is.

paulo,

The salona is nice. Still no dealer in this part of the world, ie NA! I can find a Delphia, Elan and some of the other major builders from Europe, but a lot, no go!

Marty

[PCP]

Another boat that I have visited in Dusseldorf was the new Bavaria 40s.

The boat was developed with the guys from Match race Germany and is going to be Match raced in Germany (they have already made commands for a fleet).





The good news is that the boat is much lighter (800kg) and the running rigging is a delight. All the steering system was modified and upgraded to have a really good feeling at the wheel. The traveler was moved backwards, to the cockpit. You can have a very enjoyable sailing boat with everything as it should to be, I mean rigging, right size of winches, top deck material at a very affordable price.

The bad news is that they have only one keel version with 2.35m and that's a lot for cruising. They have also opted for a non bulbed lead keel, for rating, and that seems ridiculous to me. The boat is not really adapted for cruising. I hope this is only the prototype for match racing and that a performance cruising version will appear quickly (with an anchor locker, for instance).

The boat seems very strong. It is stronger than the standard version with thicker cored halls and massif bottom, protected with kevlar on the more exposed regions. The keel is fixed to a massif structural grid, bigger than it used to be.

I had a talk with a friend I have on the Bavaria staff about the weight of their boats. Contrary to the French, that are making always lighter and lighter boats, Bavaria boats are today heavier than 6 years ago. I question him about that. He says that after some problems with the keels of the Match Bavaria 42 (a very light cruiser racer), they have stepped back and are making heavier and stronger boats. They seem strong to me

[sailingdog]

I had a talk with a friend I have on the Bavaria staff about the weight of their boats. Contrary to the French, that are making always lighter and lighter boats, Bavaria boats are today heavier than 6 years ago. I question him about that. He says that after some problems with the keels of the Match Bavaria 42 (a very light cruiser racer), they have stepped back and are making heavier and stronger boats. They seem strong to me

Well, it is a good thing they're making their boats heavier, since they had killed a few people with their earlier boats. The 42 and the 38 had keel attachment issues, where the hull laminate wasn't strong enough to support the keel properly and keels fell off, resulting in some people dying.

[PCP]

Originally Posted by sailingdog

Well, it is a good thing they're making their boats heavier, since they had killed a few people with their earlier boats. The 42 and the 38 had keel attachment issues, where the hull laminate wasn't strong enough to support the keel properly and keels fell off, resulting in some people dying.

Some clarification and some questions.

About 9 years ago Bavaria add a new line of cruising racers to their line of cruising boats. That line, that lasted few years, was called Match. They were very light and fast boats.

I have no knowledge of any keel problem (ever) with the cruising line of Bavarias, and we are talking of many thousands of boats, many subjected to charter abuse that include some hard groundings.

I have no knowledge that resulted in "some people dying". I have knowledge of a single incident in Croatia where a Match 42 lost a keel that resulted in one sailor killed.

Several boats, 42 and 38 Match, after inspection showed signs of future problems on the area of the keel attachment and Bavaria gave instructions to dealers for reinforcements on the area and bigger backing plates. After those modifications I have no knowledge of further problems. Bavaria stopped production of the Match series a short time after that incident.

Perhaps you can enlighten me about those people that died and the boats that were involved. As I have said I know only about one boat incident and one dead.

When I was talking that Bavaria was making heavier and in their judgement, stronger boats, I was not talking about the Match series, but about the Cruising series, boats that never had problems with the keels, or to my knowledge, any structural problem. To give you an idea, the 2003 Bavaria 36 that I had owned weighted about 5.7T. The new Bavaria 36 weights about 7T. That's a huge difference, the materials are the same. They say that they are opting for stronger boats and I cannot see any other justification for that difference in weight.

Regards

Paulo

[PCP]

About the Salona 41, I found this nice video:

YouTube - Salona 41 (NRO3)

Put it on HD (720) and look at the details.

You are going to understand why I like so much this boat : For this (that you can see on the video) and for its huge sailing potential.

Normally the boats that offer this sailing potential and a really good interior cost a lot more

[PCP]

Originally Posted by blt2ski

That E210 is a kewl looking boat for a trailer sailor! Looks like the motor goes thru the hull and belo ala a saildrive style, but pulls up with a flush bottom somehow? way kewl if it does that.
....
Marty

Hey Marty, now I can answer to that.



I had a good look at the boat (Dusseldorf boat show) and I can tell you that the boat looks as amazing live as in the photos.

Yes it is a trailer boat. The rudders pop out and the keel goes up but the most outstanding is that engine set up. I saw how it works. The engine is fixed to the boat by a movable bar and just swings and goes in and out of that well in a smooth movement.

With that engine in you have all the advantages of an inboard engine. All controls on the outside, including reverse, like any inboard engine, you pull it up and all the drag is gone and it stays down, on a central position, adding its weight to the ballast. Nice and very pratical

I had also a look at the interior that is cozy and with lot's of storage and interesting solutions, for the size of the boat. A very interesting boat, no doubt.

The boat raised a lot of interest in Dusseldorf.

Here you have a good video. It is not in English, but the images say it all:

YouTube - boot Düsseldorf 2011 - Elan 210

YouTube - ELAN 210 - coperta a prua

The price starts at 21 000€

Regards

Paulo

[blt2ski]

Paulo,

I have not looked at the video yet....... but when the motor is pulled up, does a cover fill the hole where the outboard went down, so a "flat" bottom per say, or is the hole still there creating drag. A popular boat around here, granted since the late 50's a T-bird, has an outboard in a well, you can pull the outboard out of the water, but the well still drags. The pics of the E210 show potentially what I would say looks like an airplane landing gear, doors open, gear/motor goes down, gear/motor goes in compartment, doors close, smooth surface for best air/water flow! Really kewl if that is how it works!

Is Salona working on a new 35-37' design, as I am recalling, the 37 is 4-6 yrs old, it is still a good looking rig, and from the online pricing, attempting to convert Euros to US$, reasonable affordable. Not as well as a Jeanneau or bene mind you........but a good bang for the monetary unit if you will.

marty

[PCP]

Originally Posted by blt2ski

Paulo,

I have not looked at the video yet....... but when the motor is pulled up, does a cover fill the hole where the outboard went down, so a "flat" bottom per say, or is the hole still there creating drag. A popular boat around here, granted since the late 50's a T-bird, has an outboard in a well, you can pull the outboard out of the water, but the well still drags. The pics of the E210 show potentially what I would say looks like an airplane landing gear, doors open, gear/motor goes down, gear/motor goes in compartment, doors close, smooth surface for best air/water flow! Really kewl if that is how it works!

Is Salona working on a new 35-37' design, as I am recalling, the 37 is 4-6 yrs old, it is still a good looking rig, and from the online pricing, attempting to convert Euros to US$, reasonable affordable. Not as well as a Jeanneau or bene mind you........but a good bang for the monetary unit if you will.

marty

Marty,

Regarding the Elan 210, if you look at the video you are going to see that it is not an open well. It has a cover that is taken to put the engine in and that is in place when the engine is out. No drag at all. You have just to look at this polar to understand that there is no drag. This little thing just flies. I bet it will be a lot of fun to sail



And it has also an amazingly good stability curve for such a small boat with a high AVS and small inverted stability.



Salona has a nice new and fast Salona 34. We have talked already about it:

Salona 34 - Salona Yachts



Regarding the 38 it seems that the new one is going to be delayed. The 37 is selling well so they are going to modify only the interior and the cockpit offering it with a two wheel setup. Regarding the 37, they have sold several boats to the world's most famous sailing school, Le Glenans. This is quite amazing because obviously those guys know what is a good sailboat and only choose the best and I say amasing because Le Glenans is a French school and the French are very picky in what regards buying things that are not French...and they have some of the best sailing boats in the world

Les Glenans : a sailing school


"A wide range of boats designed for the purpose of training Boats at the Glénans are chosen and designed to make progress of trainees faster and easier : small sailing boats, stable and easy to handle and manoeuvre are used for cruise initiation, to become autonomous more quickly and discover the subtilities of helming. Larger boats of 37 to 45 ft., comfortable and fast, are devoted to ocean navigation.
Each year, new types of boats are added to the fleet, featuring up-to-date technical features."





Regards

Paulo