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  #781  
Old 03-06-2011
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walkabout

Quote:
Originally Posted by myocean View Post
Hi Paulo!
Still I would be sceptical about the numbers. From the catamaran world I have learned that especially some small (new) builders tend to present displacement numbers which are far too optimistic (so too low).
I like to have the true measured weight of such a ship...
And: Who says that the specified payload still guarantees higher speen by planing?

Ulf
Ulf, this boat is much lighter than the RM. Has to be, the building technique is much more high-tech and lighter:

" To guarantee your safety the solidity of the epoxy composite hull , watertight bulkheads at the bow and stern to prevent sinking in case of collisions.
The construction of the hull is in sandwich with epoxy resin. Inner skin is 10 mm okumè marine grade plywood ; the soul is a closed cell PVC vacuum glued with epoxy resin and the outer skin consists of quadriaxial e-glass fibre laminated with epoxy resin.

The sandwich obtained has 35 mm thickness and in addition to providing great robustness has an excellent thermal and acoustic insulation.

The deckhouse is made of sandwich composed for the internal skin of tissues of biaxial e-glass laminated with epoxy, PVC foam bonded under vacuum with epoxy, and for the outer skin quadriaxial e-glass laminated with epoxy resin under vacuum over male model to get an elegant and self-supporting form .

A technology and quality of materials to ensure solidity and light displacement.
Junction hull-deck
Unlike the tipical production boats the deck isn't bolted and glued to the hull, but laminated to it so you get a monolithic structure that guarantees maximum resistance to the enormous efforts torsional induced by ocean navigation.

Carbon fibre chainplates laminate on the hull for a maximum resistance with excellent uniformity of materials.
Frame of structural reinforcements in laminated plywood at the bottom of the hull to distribute the efforts of the keel.
"

Walkabout Yachts

These are building techniques used in some racing boats.

David Read, the designer is a French with lots of experience in using these techniques, in designing fast boats and in following their building. The Bepox series are famous by their qualities among the French.

david reard architecture navale

The walkabout is only slighter heavier than a same sized Pogo, not by the way it's built, but because has an interior heavier and one more adapted to cruising.

The 40ft (that is comparable to the Pogo 12.50) weights a bit more: 6 120kg to 5.500kg. The difference is a lot less than 620kg because the Walkabout has a better Ballast/displacement ratio.

But I guess that you have misunderstood me. I was comparing the Pogo 12.50 with the Walkabout 43. A very naked Pogo costs (fixed keel) 176 000 euros, a walkabout 43 costs 250 000€ (I don't know the level of finish) so there are 70 000€ of difference in price.

What I was saying is that is the size this type of boat should have for extended cruising on far away places, unless is cruised solo or eventually in duo.

Regarding loading capacity what I was saying is that it is very easy to reach the Pogo 12.50 max load and that with its max load the Pogo will have difficulty in planning, but with the same load, the Walkabout 43 is only at half load and will sail and plan better.

That's why they are making a Pogo 50, for the ones that really want to sail to far away places and circumnavigate with some comfort and load.

Voiles et Voiliers : Chantier - Nouveauté : Pogo 50 : Croisière «No limit» !

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-23-2013 at 12:21 PM.
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  #782  
Old 03-06-2011
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Yes, that way it becomes reasonable. I was just critical about the blue water real life performance of the 40 ft.
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  #783  
Old 03-07-2011
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Salona 41

New review on the Salona 41. A short one (first impression) on Voile et Voiliers:

they have said:

"With another circumstances the lack of wind could have penalized another boat. For the Salone 41...it was almost a sales argument: With 4K of wind and with the 140% genoa, the boat was making a steady 4K (wind speed).

... A beautiful boat for the sailors that want a performance boat without the sacrifices of a true racing boat.
"






And look at the steel grid that distributes the loads from the keel and mast. I have looked at one at the shipyard and it looks really well made. it just adapts perfectly to the hull. That's one of the things that just make this boat stand from the competition. Systems like this are only used by considerably more expensive boats, like the X-Yacht, Luffe or Grand-Soleil.




Look at this characteristics:





With 110m2 for 7.2T of weight, a sharp hull with only 3.84 of beam, it is not surprising that the boat needs only 4K wind to sail. The Ballast/Displacement is also on the good side, a lot better than the one from the Dufour 40e, for instance. The boat has a good capacity diesel tank, but the water one it is not big enough, in my opinion. They offer as an option an additional one with 100L and with that, the water capacity is enough for me (they have a foot sea water pump to have also sea water).

Another interesting feature is the possibility of choosing 4 different drafts, from 1.75 to 2.68M. Pick the one you want, depending to the use you are going to give the boat and the cruising grounds (the weight of each is different, from the heavier with 1.75 to the lighter with 2.65).

Regarding cruising another interesting feature is the possibility of having an all LEED lighting, interior and navigation. That will permit to have the lights on while at anchor, even some reading at night. My wife would love that option


Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-23-2013 at 12:22 PM.
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  #784  
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Beautiful Paulo.
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  #785  
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On the Salona 41 - they need to take another look at the rigging there. Your foresail traveler is going to be severely limited by the inner stay. BIG issues if you're going for a 110% or want to use a light gennaker up front.

Likewise, they have the German main sheet system, but likewise, this overlaps the foresail track. Big issue if your going off wind and have the main and foresail rigging chafing against one another.

Certainly looks nice and well built, but those are two clear "issues" with the current set-up. This boat is set-up for a sym-spinnaker I guess? The blocks are too far forward to single hand a sym and even double handing may be tricky with one person in the steps as the blocks are far forward.

Again, looks like a nice boat, but a bit of a hybrid with some concessions you wouldn't want on a "sport" boat.
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  #786  
Old 03-07-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bb74 View Post
..
Again, looks like a nice boat, but a bit of a hybrid with some concessions you wouldn't want on a "sport" boat.
You can only be kidding

Contrary with the cruising Pogos that are unsuitable for racing, these boats can race without major modifications and can won races at top level. Take a look:

"2010 September
At the ORCi World Championship in Flensburg, Germany, among the 55 top racing teams and boats from all over the world, Salona has reached podium in both divisions. Croatian Salona 42, All 4 One, skippered by Karlo Kuret won third place overall in the class A and Salona 37 from Holland, skippered by Erik Van Vuueren, won third place in the class B. Both Salonas were launched earlier this year and in June S42 won Open Croatian championship and S37 won Flevo race, Dutch Championship.
Participating for the first time at the World Championship, once again Salona has proved to build boats with uncompromised sailing performance. Many boats built by famous world brands have stayed in the wake of Salonas, even some pure racing boats built in carbon fibre.
The success of Salona teams is even bigger knowing that the boats that raced in Flensburg did not have any special modifications, except S42 being built under IBC specification (Salona 42 All 4 One just came from Adriatic where its owners were cruising and spending family holidays. This boat even has heating system installed onboard in order to provide its owners with the possibility to sail in comfort during the winter)."


The 42 is just the 41 with one steering wheel instead of two. The 41 is also a bit lighter and marginally faster.

Regards

Paulo
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  #787  
Old 03-08-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
You can only be kidding

Contrary with the cruising Pogos that are unsuitable for racing, these boats can race without major modifications and can won races at top level. Take a look:

"2010 September
At the ORCi World Championship in Flensburg, Germany, among the 55 top racing teams and boats from all over the world, Salona has reached podium in both divisions. Croatian Salona 42, All 4 One, skippered by Karlo Kuret won third place overall in the class A and Salona 37 from Holland, skippered by Erik Van Vuueren, won third place in the class B. Both Salonas were launched earlier this year and in June S42 won Open Croatian championship and S37 won Flevo race, Dutch Championship.
Participating for the first time at the World Championship, once again Salona has proved to build boats with uncompromised sailing performance. Many boats built by famous world brands have stayed in the wake of Salonas, even some pure racing boats built in carbon fibre.
The success of Salona teams is even bigger knowing that the boats that raced in Flensburg did not have any special modifications, except S42 being built under IBC specification (Salona 42 All 4 One just came from Adriatic where its owners were cruising and spending family holidays. This boat even has heating system installed onboard in order to provide its owners with the possibility to sail in comfort during the winter)."


The 42 is just the 41 with one steering wheel instead of two. The 41 is also a bit lighter and marginally faster.

Regards

Paulo
Paulo, All points taken on their sailing performance. I don't doubt the boats do well and they certainly look to be well built.

My issues raised were with the rigging on the 41 pictured. In my view, there are some significant issues there that would make this a tricky boat (as currently rigged) to be swapping out foresails, gennakers & spinnakers. Everything is centered around the rod coming down and overlap with the German sheet and foresail track.

Again, my only issue is how the rigging is setup and that was my point on the "concessions".
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
bb74, I am really interested in understanding what you are saying. This is one of the boats I am interested in and I would like to sort it out any problem. It really would not be a problem if it is sorted out first since the guys from Salona are very helpful and can change the rigging to adapt to particular needs.

So if you can explain better what you mean I would appreciate


The photo I have posted, is of a 110% Genoa. It goes inside the inner stay. On the other photo you have a 140% Genoa, it goes outside the stays. I don't understand what is the problem you see with the use of a light geenaker, the geenaker, even a code 0 will not go to the traveller, but to the back of the boat.







For whatever reason, I can't post photos but I think you caught my points for the most part. The foresail track and overlap on the main sheet line limits sail size, shape and tuning ability. I'd guess anything more than a 110 and less than a 130 is a possible issue. It doesn't appear you could properly tune a sail in this "size". The 140 appears OK but by looking at this rigging, I think you are looking at possible chafing on the rigging pointing at max. Maybe this isn't an issue. It is something I would look into on the boat itself. I haven't been on one but it looks like this would be the case. It would be interesting to get their feedback on main/foresail balance in the 110 to 140 range. Clearly some considerations they've engineered around there so I think one could assume it's meant to work with a 110 or 140.

I think I understand what you mean but I don't understand how it can happen, unless it is badly designed and that should be difficult. The rigging set up is designed by the boat architecht and fine tunned by the resident naval architect that is a good sailor, with the contribution of Salona clients that are mostly racers. I think the system is designed in a way that the 110% Genoa or smaller sail, will work on the track forward of the German sheet line and the 140% Genoa or bigger on the track aft that sheet. I will ask them but I am pretty sure that the system will work smoothly.

The spinnaker blocks are very near to the wheels at easy reach of a solo sailor. Can you explain this better?

Your spinnaker pulley/block is behind the mainsail winch, which is behind the foresail winch. As the german sheet system is under deck, make sure the outlet pulley (to the winch) can provide access to both winches. Purely by the angle in the pics, I doubt you should look at rigging the mainsail sheet on the foresail winch. Too much angle and likely friction. So assuming that, you're basically hand-managing a spinnaker on a 41 footer because otherwise you're crossing the cockpit to your off station foresail winch. A bit messy. perhaps you can bring this back to the companionway winch..?? Need to confirm if the deck mouldings and angles allow this. As it is currently set-up, I don't see a way you can bring the spinnaker lines to the foresail winch so even having blockers on these may not be of great benefit. I know you don't always need a winch for the spi if the tackle and blocks are sized appropriately. I do know from experience that it's better to have the option to winch it down. Opposite side, you would need a winch for the spinnaker pole so again, similar challenge, and you absolutely need the winch to manage the pole. Maybe the logic is station 1 helm & main, station 2 windward sheet off the block, station 3 pole + halyard in the companionway, station 4 foredeck...?

You need clean access to a sheet winch to set the Gennaker or Spi in medium wind and I don't see how this works (yet) on this boat with the set-up. If you lose the mainsheet winch, how do you control the main? Nitpicking for some, I'm sure. I don't doubt they've thought these things thru at Salona, and it would be interesting to get their thoughts and recommendations.

Best regards.



Probably the only thing I would like to add is to put blocks identical to the ones from the spinnaker before the genoa sheet reachs the winch. That way I can have the genoa on while I use the winch to set a geenaker or a spinnaker.

Regards

Paulo
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  #789  
Old 03-09-2011
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Dear all,
I have read through all pages. Interesting reading. I have myself been through several boats during the last 10 years looking for the perfect boat and so far not succeeded. What I am looking for is a 38-40 feet deck saloon, with a sailing friendly cockpit (big or double wheels, side coamings to sit on with good looks forward,single handed set up) and with good sailing performance. The best pick so far (an Olsen 38 P 1995) was lost in fire so I bought under time pressure an Beneteau Oceanis 40 2007 and after getting tired of the frequent broaches I bought a Dehler 43 CWS 1993 2 years ago. It is ticking many boxes and was well before its time with furler under deck, all sheets and haylards below deck to 2 electrical winches at the doubled steering wheels, fold down bathing platform etc. It is also stiff and very reluctant to loose rudder grip. But, as an old windsurfer would like, it does not take off even if it is a very fast boat. At those (rare) days when everything is perfect, strong winds from the right direction etc. and you expect to enjoy the sailing it is as dissapointing as all previous boats. 8 knots, 8,5 knots perhaps 9,5 knots and then thats it. But in the next puff it will fly you think but not much more happens.

I did hit 13,5 knots sailing it home from Germany to Sweden but that was with 22 m/s from behind and with only one reef in the big main.

So once again I am contemplating a new boat and I have been looking at the Elan 350 (too small), RM 1200 and 1060, Azzuree 40, and Wauquiez Opium 38. After reading through all these pages I am though more and more pessimistic about if I will get these boat doing so much more speed. I like to bring with me things that make the summer sailing nice, that is bikes, windsurfing boards, dinghy etc. so I am afraid that these modern twin rudder wide stern boats will not take off either, as I am spoiled with from my windsurfng board.

Last edited by JAndersB; 03-09-2011 at 05:53 AM.
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  #790  
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I don't think you'll be seeing a huge upgrade in average speed unless you sail in heavy conditions with a lot of cloth out. I've never sailed your boat, but I would imagine that you would have a lighter "feel" of the tiller on an Opium (for example). Load it up however and you have the same problem as you have now. A boat that is no longer light as a feather and therefore acceleration and feel will suffer some. I'd suggest you look at what you carry as payload on your current boat and what that would mean on a new boat - if you are anywhere near 75% of max payload of a planing design, the performance is likely to suffer. It's like trying to pack 8 suitcases and a ski rack on a Lotus Elise.
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