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  #71  
Old 07-24-2010
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Noordkaper 40

Don't be greedy. I am sure a 40ft is enough for you, like this one:



This one is not so expensive

2004 Noordkaper 40 gebr van Enkhuizen - Boats.com

At least for a rich guy . Seriously, this is not a Puffin, it looks very similar but the hull is very different. This one is even more traditional, a direct descendent of the old North Sea fishing boats. They are similar because they have the same origins but the Noordkaper maintains much of the original hull form.

These beauties are designed by another Dutch Naval Architect, Martin Bekebrede.

2004 Noordkaper 40 gebr van Enkhuizen - Boats.com

KoopmansKasko


The interiors look even better than the ones from Puffin:

Noordkaper 40 - 43 - 46 - 52 - 56 - 60

At least a charter place on one of this babies seems not too expensive...and in very nice places.
Take a look at this one:

Anne-Margaretha Charters Zee Zeilen - The Ship

Anne-Margaretha Charters Zee Zeilen - Welkom op de site van de Anne-Margaretha

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-22-2013 at 11:13 AM.
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  #72  
Old 07-25-2010
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On design - different types of boats

Letís get back to performance boats, but first let me make a clarification:

On this thread there are light performance boats, medium displacement boats like the Sirius or the Nordship and heavy boats, like the Puffin or the NoordKaper. Do I really like all these sailboats?: Yes I do . Do they all sail well? Yes, accordingly to what they were designed to do.

Letís start with the Noordkaper. This one is made for voyaging and I donít mean small trips, but for living aboard and circumnavigate. That means trade winds on the right season. Trade winds means generally 15 to 25k blowing from the right place. On this conditions a 42 Noordkapper probably will go along nicely between 6,5 and 8,5k with style and comfort.

Try to sail that boat with 10k wind and it will go very slowly. Try to go against the wind and probably you will find that the boat will not do better than 50 or 55ļ. Thatís why it has a big diesel tank and a big engine. If you donít plan to make big voyages, this is not the boat for you, unless you chose to live in the boat and accept that on most occasions you will have to motor or motorsail to go anywhere.

Letís go to the other extreme, performance cruising boats. Those that are normally called cruiser-racers and are dual purpose boats: You can club race with the friends and you can cruise. I am only addressing here the cruising potential.

Letís compare the Noordkapper with a 45ft, for example the First 45.

http://www.beneteau.com/UserFile/Image/Panoramiques_Flash/dec07/beneteau-first-45.html

http://www.beneteau.com/fr/voile/produit.aspx?GAM_CODE=6&PRO_CODE=300

Of course, not minding the price (the Noordkapper would cost more than twice), the First could be used to voyage extensively and to cross oceans, at a speed far superior to the Noordkapper (trade winds between 9 and 14k) but of course you hope not to hit a whale or anything of considerable size with the First. The boat would probably survive, but not the rudder (the risk is small, but it can happen).

The kind of movement would be also different (and I am not discussing it where), but I would say that on the Nordkapper the movement would be more attenuated. The load that the First can carry is also very different. It is true that the First does not need to have a huge engine or big diesel tanks because it can sail in many sailing conditions where the Noordkapper would have to use the engine, but in what concerns water, on the First you have to be careful while on the Noordkapper you donít even think about that ( on the First if you do that kind of travel, you would end up mounting a watermaker).

On the Noordkapper you can carry all your stuff, on the First you travel light (and fast).

In what concerns trade winds and grand touring the advantages and disadvantages are mixed, but in what concerns local sailing and coastal and semi-coastal cruising all advantages are on the First side (except if you chose to live in the boat and motor almost everywhere).

While you are slowly motoring the Noordkaper, the First can make 8 K with 10 K wind and probably 6K with 7K wind. With the First you will be sailing most of the time, even against the wind, with the Noordkaper you will be motoring most of the time.

To choose one or other type of boat it is up to your sailing program and with the type of use you are going to give to the boat.

The medium displacement boats that I have posted here are intermediate situations, with a special attention to the new range of Nordships, that are no racing boats, but are fast and good sailing boats, for the kind of program they were built for. You would choose one of these or a performance boat according with your sailing tastes (sportive and fast or cool and slower) and your need for interior comfort.

Thatís not exactly like that , because the 40 Nordship would cost twice the price of the performance boats I have posted on this thread. The option would be a RM that would cost about the price of a performance boat, it is faster than most cruisers and is a boat designed for voyaging. Thatís the one of the French choices as the voyage boat, and they have a lot from to choose (the other one would be a more expensive aluminum centerboard).

I guess the affordable option would be a mainstream boat, a Bavaria, a Jeanneau a Benetau, a Dufour or a Hanse. But even among these ones there are differences with the Dufour and Hanse being more performance oriented (the Bavaria seems to be moving also on that direction).

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-22-2013 at 11:14 AM.
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  #73  
Old 07-25-2010
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Salona 42

The new Salona 41: They are looking for a dealer in the States and I believe it will not take a long time. That's one of the shipyards that has been growing in Europe. They sell high quality boats at a fair price. Their new 44 has been making quite an impression, but the boat that I liked most is the 42, the boat that this one is going to substitute.

The boats are very similar even in what regards the interior. This is the one from the 41:





I believe the major diference are de two wheels intead of one and as that system permits to save some space on the back of the boat, this one is a ft shorter. The boat has the same LWL, the same ballast but it is 150kg lighter, it is 2 cm wider and it has more 9 m2 of sail (111 m2).

Another very important diference is the price. This one costs less money.

I think (and hope) that this one is going to be as beautifull as the 42. The 42 looks as beautiful and modern as in the day it was launched. Take a look:




Last edited by PCP; 12-13-2013 at 10:27 AM.
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  #74  
Old 07-26-2010
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Cigale 16

New Cigale 16: This is a gorgeous boat, and don't you know that they have found that chines, in the right place, improves the boat performance? Today ocean racers and fast ocean boats have chines.

Yes it is true, it is very influenced by the current crop of ocean racers, particularly, solo racers and it makes sense. This boat is designed to be solo sailed and has all the improvements that come for that kind of races, namely the broad stern to improve downwind stability: That permits you to leave it safely on autopilot, while surfing at two figure digits.

Regarding the interior, this boat as the same kind of set up of its predecessor, so I can tell you that it will be a very comfortable interior. It is no deck sallon, but it has a very big salon with view to the exterior (6 fixed portholes) two on each side and two on the back of the boat. It has also a dinghy "garage" and that is quite useful.






Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 12-13-2013 at 10:31 AM.
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  #75  
Old 07-26-2010
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Paulo I didn't intend 'strange looking thing' to be an insult. I actually like 'strange looking things but you get my point...that great big "does my arse look big in this" stern but only one wheel.

I still cannot place it. The idea of the big fold down dinghy dock reminds me of Hanse but its not one of theirs.

Speaking of which I have to admit a liking for Hanse. There is an older model 50 odd footer on our marina and I am quite taken with the thing. The H430 is pretty impressive. Only thing I don't really like about Hanse is the lack of a stand alone chart table. I'd rather have that and a full length settee to port than two large heads. Call me old fashioned, if you will...

Hanse Yachts

and the 630 is simply awesome.

Hanse Yachts

ps - don't talk to me about chines.....been there, done that, whats more still wearing the t-shirt.....(vds34, multi chine steel.....hate to think how slow she'd be if the chines make her faster..)
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Last edited by tdw; 07-26-2010 at 08:00 PM.
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  #76  
Old 07-26-2010
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Thought I had posted this earlier but it appears to have gone into the void.

Regarding the Bestevaer v Puffin v Noordkapper.

To my mind the Noordkapper goes to far towards the traditional. Very nice and all that but but but....while the Puffin I like very much although I'm not a great fan of bowsprits....that anchor position is kind of weird as well but nonetheless the Puffin comes very close indeed.

However , if only they made it....a Puffin sized Bestevaer would be my ideal. The Bestewind 50 is such a wonderful amalgam of the modern and traditional, for me Dykstra is a very clever man indeed. Unlike Puffin and/or Noordkapper the Bestevaer/Bestewind is undeniably a modern design. I simply don't need or want 50'. But if I must...





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Last edited by tdw; 07-26-2010 at 07:58 PM.
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  #77  
Old 07-26-2010
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Very beautiful boat, thanks for sharing.

DYkstra is one of world's best Architects. His boats are modern even if they look classic. He also does refit of old and beautiful sailing boats, but that is another story. By modern I mean they are light, good and fast sailing boats with a modern underbody. I would not mind to own the one you have posted even if I would prefer a faster boat, but I like the classic touch of his designs. My work as an architecht as a lot to do with what Dykstra do, but applied to houses.

Regarding the Hanse it is another story. I have mixed feelings. I like some of the designs (the 430 even if I have doubts regarding the stability) and some of the bigger boats, but I truly hate the interiors, especially the ones from the bigger boats (they mimic small apartments and the quality is not even that good). I am talking only about design, because as sailboats the Hanse are remarcably good sailing boats.


Regards

Paulo
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Old 07-26-2010
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Paulo, I tend to agree with you regarding the interiors. Hey, even the work we do with architects on some modern places does not work for me.

Anyway, I've thought about it long and hard. I'll accept the Bestewind, 50' or not.

Actually I wonder what is happening there. The Bestewind web site is down and has been for some time now.

As for your mystery boat, there is something about her that is nagging away at the back of mind. Maybe another boat by the same designer, I don't know.
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  #79  
Old 07-27-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdw View Post
Paulo, I tend to agree with you regarding the interiors. Hey, even the work we do with architects on some modern places does not work for me.

...
I have been inside those boats and believe me, the real thing is a lot worse than in the photos. For instance you have nice looking "sofas" (armchairs) till you try to seat, just to find out they are too small and that you cannot fit in (I am also a big guy ) and the quality and kind of furniture leaves much to be desired.

True, they are not expensive boats and I have to admit that the furniture is practical, especially on the smaller boats, with lots of storage space. It is more a question of taste.

Regards

Paulo
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  #80  
Old 07-27-2010
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Guillaume de Verdier

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdw View Post



ps - don't talk to me about chines.....been there, done that, whats more still wearing the t-shirt.....(vds34, multi chine steel.....hate to think how slow she'd be if the chines make her faster..)
I would have said the same thing some years back. Then it come Guillaume de Verdier, a very young architect (a kid really ) designed a revolutionary class 40 made of wood and with chines. He said the chines would help the boat to be faster.

I (and I am sure a lot of guys) thought he was crazy and that the chines were there because it was the less expensive way to build that boat.

We were wrong, the boat was a winner, then he made Safran, the fastest of the actual Open 60 generation (excluding the new boats that are being launched), again a boat with chines. Now all designers are putting chines on their boats, and not only on the Open 60 and class 40, but also on the new Volvo 70.

The Open 60 lead again the way in hull design, not only in what regards the use of chines, but in what regards the type of transom. Have a good look at the new generation Volvo 70. All of them also have broad transom and that as nothing to do with the boat being wide or not. It was to do with the way the transom is laid .

guillaume verdier - architecture navale - Accueil


Last edited by PCP; 10-22-2013 at 11:20 AM.
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