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  #791  
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some info for thought - from the Pogo 40 GTE and the 10.50.

POGO 40 GTE
Prédictions de vitesse
Best Boatspeeds (kt)
4 6 8 10 12 14 16 20 25 30 35
32.0 3.08 4.59 5.76 6.52 6.92 7.15 7.32 7.56 7.73 7.79 7.76
36.0 3.50 5.14 6.31 6.94 7.29 7.54 7.71 7.94 8.11 8.19 8.21
40.0 3.86 5.60 6.73 7.27 7.63 7.84 8.01 8.24 8.43 8.55 8.59
45.0 4.28 6.07 7.10 7.65 7.95 8.15 8.32 8.58 8.78 8.93 9.00
52.0 4.77 6.60 7.54 8.02 8.30 8.50 8.69 9.02 9.29 9.47 9.59
60.0 5.19 6.98 7.88 8.34 8.64 8.91 9.13 9.48 9.83 10.11 10.32
70.0 5.51 7.27 8.12 8.70 9.05 9.34 9.59 10.06 10.60 11.08 11.48
80.0 5.63 7.39 8.30 8.92 9.39 9.72 10.06 10.71 11.54 12.28 12.85
90.0 5.71 7.59 8.44 9.02 9.59 10.11 10.54 11.45 12.56 13.72 14.53
100.0 5.85 7.73 8.63 9.19 9.66 10.26 11.01 12.21 13.76 14.88 15.74
110.0 5.80 7.70 8.61 9.38 9.93 10.51 11.13 12.87 14.65 15.86 16.91
120.0 5.52 7.41 8.52 9.31 10.12 10.79 11.61 13.12 15.34 16.75 17.99
130.0 4.94 6.89 8.14 9.08 9.92 10.79 11.96 13.88 15.71 17.31 18.91
140.0 4.18 6.08 7.48 8.45 9.35 10.30 11.48 14.16 16.33 18.18 19.89
150.0 3.39 5.09 6.57 7.70 8.59 9.43 10.38 12.98 16.28 18.98 20.99
160.0 2.82 4.26 5.62 6.83 7.81 8.62 9.42 11.36 14.71 18.02 21.21
170.0 2.52 3.80 5.06 6.24 7.27 8.15 8.94 10.62 13.54 16.69 19.95
180.0 2.43 3.66 4.89 6.04 7.08 7.98 8.75 10.36 13.08 16.17 19.31
Up.Vs 4.32 5.85 6.66 6.94 7.26 7.47 7.61 7.78 7.94 8.07 8.16
Up.Bt 45.4 42.5 39.2 35.9 35.6 35.3 34.9 34.1 34.1 34.7 35.5
Up.Vmg 3.03 4.31 5.16 5.62 5.90 6.10 6.24 6.44 6.58 6.64 6.64
Dn.Vs 4.51 6.20 7.06 7.77 8.39 9.23 10.57 13.41 16.04 18.56 21.03
Dn.Bt 135.6 138.6 144.4 149.0 152.3 152.5 148.3 147.3 152.8 156.8 161.7
Dn.Vmg 3.22 4.65 5.74 6.66 7.43 8.18 8.99 11.28 14.27 17.06 19.97

and for the Pogo 10.50

POGO 10.50 - VPP finot-conq
a r c h i t e c t e s
sans modèle vagues
Best Boatspeeds (kt)
4 6 8 10 12
32 2,33 3,53 4,61 5,32 5,71
36 2,63 3,95 5,1 5,78 6,14
40 2,88 4,32 5,51 6,16 6,48
45 3,17 4,71 5,93 6,53 6,82
52 3,49 5,14 6,38 6,94 7,23
60 3,76 5,48 6,7 7,31 7,57
70 3,96 5,71 6,94 7,61 7,91
80 4,39 6,27 7,18 7,75 8,2
90 4,62 6,51 7,43 7,85 8,33
100 4,67 6,54 7,59 8,08 8,48
110 4,49 6,36 7,55 8,26 8,71
120 4,15 5,99 7,3 8,15 8,84
130 3,7 5,45 6,82 7,78 8,58
140 3,19 4,78 6,19 7,27 8,06
150 2,74 4,13 5,43 6,58 7,48
160 2,36 3,56 4,74 5,84 6,81
170 2,14 3,23 4,31 5,35 6,32
180 1,97 2,98 3,98 4,96 5,88
Up Vs 3,12 4,6 5,65 6,13 6,3
Up Bt 44,4 43,5 41,5 39,6 37,7
Up Vmg 2,23 3,34 4,23 4,72 4,98
Dn Vs 3,21 4,74 5,92 6,66 7,34
Dn Bt 139,2 140,2 143,2 148,7 151,9
Dn Vmg 2,43 3,65 4,74 5,69 6,48
finot-conq chantier STRUCTURES le 21/11/08
t e c t e s
14 16 20 25 30 35
5,94 6,1 6,29 6,38 6,33 6,15
6,36 6,51 6,71 6,84 6,85 6,75
6,68 6,84 7,07 7,22 7,27 7,23
7,04 7,21 7,43 7,57 7,63 7,63
7,42 7,58 7,81 7,99 8,1 8,13
7,77 7,94 8,2 8,44 8,58 8,65
8,14 8,34 8,66 8,94 9,14 9,27
8,47 8,7 9,06 9,47 9,78 10,01
8,75 9,01 9,51 10,06 10,55 10,94
8,81 9,28 9,97 10,73 11,41 11,95
9,08 9,46 10,36 11,42 12,27 13,07
9,33 9,8 10,76 11,96 13,17 14,06
9,32 10,08 11,3 12,76 14,09 15,22
8,82 9,65 11,67 13,57 15,09 16,45
8,21 8,9 10,7 13,66 16,04 17,6
7,6 8,28 9,73 12,23 15,16 17,97
7,15 7,83 9,12 11,24 13,93 16,67
6,71 7,44 8,64 10,35 12,69 15,25
6,43 6,58 6,88 7,05 7,14 7,18
36,8 36,9 37,7 38,1 38,6 39,6
5,15 5,27 5,44 5,55 5,58 5,54
7,64 8,28 11,04 13,59 15,72 17,87
159 159,9 147,3 150,5 155,7 161
7,13 7,77 9,29 11,83 14,33 16,9
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  #792  
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bb74, I think there is something wrong with those tables. Probably they are not well aligned . First numbers are wind speed, I guess, but you have 4,6 and 8 over 32º. Please separate the wind speeds with traces to make them match with the correspondent wind speeds.

The 40 GTE is the racing Pogo. They don't have boat speeds for the cruising one?

Regards

Paulo
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I can't past a *gif or image for some reason. The 32°, etc is true wind angle. The 4 6 8 etc is true wind speed.
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Rm 1350

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
Dear all,
I have read through all pages. Interesting reading. I have myself been through several boats during the last 10 years looking for the perfect boat and so far not succeeded. What I am looking for is a 38-40 feet deck saloon, with a sailing friendly cockpit (big or double wheels, side coamings to sit on with good looks forward,single handed set up) and with good sailing performance. The best pick so far (an Olsen 38 P 1995) was lost in fire so I bought under time pressure an Beneteau Oceanis 40 2007 and after getting tired of the frequent broaches I bought a Dehler 43 CWS 1993 2 years ago. It is ticking many boxes and was well before its time with furler under deck, all sheets and haylards below deck to 2 electrical winches at the doubled steering wheels, fold down bathing platform etc. It is also stiff and very reluctant to loose rudder grip. But, as an old windsurfer would like, it does not take off even if it is a very fast boat. At those (rare) days when everything is perfect, strong winds from the right direction etc. and you expect to enjoy the sailing it is as dissapointing as all previous boats. 8 knots, 8,5 knots perhaps 9,5 knots and then thats it. But in the next puff it will fly you think but not much more happens.

I did hit 13,5 knots sailing it home from Germany to Sweden but that was with 22 m/s from behind and with only one reef in the big main.

So once again I am contemplating a new boat and I have been looking at the Elan 350 (too small), RM 1200 and 1060, Azzuree 40, and Wauquiez Opium 38. After reading through all these pages I am though more and more pessimistic about if I will get these boat doing so much more speed. I like to bring with me things that make the summer sailing nice, that is bikes, windsurfing boards, dinghy etc. so I am afraid that these modern twin rudder wide stern boats will not take off either, as I am spoiled with from my windsurfng board.
Welcome to the Sailnet and particularly to this thread

I agree partially with bb74 in what regards the speed of your boat in comparison with the other boats you mention.

You are right, the Dehler 43 CWS was a very good boat and it can still stand as a fast boat. It is relatively light (8.7T) but also with a relatively small sail area (86m2). It was 3.95M of beam and 11.55M of LWL.

A RM 1200 weights 7.8T and has a 99.5 m2 of sail area with 4.22m of beam and 11.42m of LWL. With the same charge the RM will be considerably faster on light winds and will go considerable faster downwind. The bigger beam and stern gives an overall small weight distribution and makes it easier to plan.

Of course an Opium 39 with only 5000kg of weight, 87m2 of sail area, 4.18m of beam and an LWL of 11.02m will probably be faster than the RM at least by the same margin the RM is to your boat.

They announce a Max charge for the Opium 39 of 2600kg and that is a lot. If you cruise with half of that, I am sure the RM will still be a very fast boat.

If we consider the 1300kg (half charge) - 510kg of tankage - 4 adults X 85kg we still have 450 kg for provisions and equipment. That is a possible cruising charge but only for coastal cruising and to the ones that don't like to carry a lot of stuff. Sure you can have 1800kg for provisions and equipment and that will give it passage autonomy but at the cost of speed, at least till the provisions are eaten

The boat that is most adapted for what I think you want would not be the RM 1200, but the RM 1350 (cruising fast with a considerable load). This one, like the RM 1200 can be sailed from the interior, has a big loading capacity and is a lot faster than the RM1200. Even with more than what you carry in your boat this boat would be at half charge and would sail fast and plan easily with 16/17K winds. The RM 1350 with 17/18K of wind is an easy 10/11K sailing boat (from 65º up).

video Voilier RM 1350 Cruising Bird premiere sortie au pays basque - coaching, location voiliers, hendaye - video kewego






The RM 1350 is a fast boat that doesn't give the sensation to be a fast boat. The boat is very stable, heel very little and you have to look at the instruments to understand that you are going really fast (except with lots of wind, downwind were the boat can be fun, safe and very fast).

Anyway, I agree with bb74 in one thing: With medium or strong winds, close to the wind your boat is hard to beat, and even if some of the other boats I have pointed out can be faster, it would not be a big difference.

If that pilot-house capacity is not a priority ( and I understand that for the ones that sail in Sweden it can really make sense) and If you want a fast boat that is not especially optimized for downwind sailing, but more of an all around performer with a good interior then you can also consider the Salona 41. 7.2T of weight and 111m2 of sail gives you an idea of the boat speed potential.

I you want really a fast downwind sailing boat with a good interior why not to wait 9 months for the new Elan 40?

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-23-2013 at 12:25 PM.
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Dear Paulo,
thank you for the feed back. One thing I would like to comment is that my Dehler has a 37 sqm jib and a 61 sqm main (I put in some more roach) so sail area quite OK but not as big as in the Salona.

I have test sailed the RM1200 and visited the RM1350. RM1200 is very nice but a little bit too big. It had the single rudder configuration and I found it as prone to broaching as the Beneteau Oceanis. The twin rudder option would be a must. It was also slamming harder than the Benetau going to windward. I found the 1350 not giving that much more than the 1200 and it is of course even bigger than the 1200.

I am not looking for a pilot huse as much as for a deck saloon. If I am anchored in the nature or in a busy harbour I would like to be able to see the scenery even at night or in bad weather.

Yes, the coming Elan 40 could be a hit, meanwhile the Opium 39 ticks many boxes except the true deck saloon-request. Or I stick with the Dehler and concentrate on going to windward :-)

Regards,
Anders
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PCP - Have you found your boat yet?

Hello PCP,
I'm just checking in, to see if you have made any decisions on your next boat purchase? I'm personally no further ahead, but I have not sold my existing boat yet so there is certainly not much I can do until that time comes. Hopefully this season eh?

I'm sitting in Dubai Airport running through this thread from start to finish (keeping me out of trouble for a few hours and I wondered if you have made your decision? If not, please reveal your short-list.

I'm finding this thread incredibly interesting. Thanks again for it.
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  #797  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bb74 View Post
Structures is pretty open (in my discussions with them), on finding that slot for the delivery date. On the 10.50, when I last spoke with them, there were a few slots that could have been available before the full 2 1/2 year wait list as some (a few) buyers wouldn't mind postponing delivery due to various reasons. I'm not sure if this is still the case because it's been a few months since I've spoke with them but I would imagine there are slots in well under 2 years.
Please excuse me for this late reply, I was absent for some time. But I did follow your advice and asked Structures for an update. Unfortunately (for me) all pre-bookings have been confirmed so the waiting list remains around 12-18months for the Pogo 12.50. Which is still a lot better than for the 10.50 and since we are now almost half-way...

Meanwhile some very interesting posts have catched my attention. For example, I very well understand JAndersB looking for an even more exhilarating boat than the Dehler 43. Having sailed a Dehler 39 CWS for many years, also a quite fast design considering the time and rating issues, I also missed the kick one gets on a Laser or a 470.
Of course no seaworthy sailing yacht will ever give the same feeling, but during a week on the Pogo 10.50 we sometimes got quite close. Over 13K in 17K of true wind, under asymetric but in cruising mode (probably even somewhat overloaded), these light displacement boats clearly play in a different league. The figures bb74 posted are certainly realistic.

Speaking of displacement and load capacity, I agree with Paulo. There are of course no miracles, not even in yacht design, we have to make choices. Light, beamy and fast (especially downwind), or more comfortable with better load capacity. The latter increases with the size of the boat and that's one of the reasons why we opted for the bigger Pogo. And why they now work on a 50 footer, for those who want to spend months instead of weeks on board. Blue water cruisers like the RM's try to make the best out of two worlds and may be a good compromise.

Concerning ballast ratio, I would like to add a parameter: draught. The lower the ballast is, the more efficient it will be. That's why a lighter but deeper canting keel will work as well as a more heavy fixed or lifting keel, while reducing total weight. And with a high aspect ratio that might have the efficienty of a daggerboard...

Kind regards,

Eric
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
.. One thing I would like to comment is that my Dehler has a 37 sqm jib and a 61 sqm main (I put in some more roach) so sail area quite OK but not as big as in the Salona.
Anders,

That is outstanding, even if I don't know how do you managed to pass from 86m2 to 98m2. I don't think more roach is enough. You have a much bigger mast than the one on this Dehler 43, that I think is the standard boat?

http://www.wasayachts.com/dyn/files/...2043%20Max.pdf

I have following the new Dehler 40 and the boat in its standard version will have 8280kg and only 92m2 of sail and that would make it probably slower than your boat and the Dehler 40 is suposed to be a fast boat.

Are you sure your boat has 98m2 of sail?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
I have test sailed the RM1200 and visited the RM1350. RM1200 is very nice but a little bit too big. It had the single rudder configuration and I found it as prone to broaching as the Beneteau Oceanis. The twin rudder option would be a must. It was also slamming harder than the Benetau going to windward. I found the 1350 not giving that much more than the 1200 and it is of course even bigger than the 1200.
I have also test sailed the RM1200, but not the 1350. The numbers and speeds that I have seen refereed by people that have sailed the 1350 and by testers point to a fast boat. On the last Route du Rhum there was one racing, naked and optimized, with a single keel and the boat was as fast as some 40class racers, and that is fast

What I think we agree is that the RM1200 and possibly the RM1300 don't give too much sensations at the wheel, or tiller.

When you say that the RM1200 is " as prone to broaching as the Beneteau Oceanis "(40) I guess that you have tried the boat when you had already the Dehler The Oceanis 40 is one of the cruisers with less ballast/weight ratio and if you carry too much sail, there it goes, really easy.

I don't believe it is fair to say that the RM 1200 broaches as easily as the Oceanis 40. The RM carries a lot of sail and it is designed to sail with not too much heel. If you have too much sail, it will broach, but at a very different speed and with more wind. The RM 1200 has a much bigger stability if compared with the Oceanis 40.

Of course, you can not compare it with the Dehler. It is a completely different type of boat, the Dehler is a narrower boat, with a smaller hull stability but with a bigger Ballast/weight ratio (to compensate the smaller hull stability). That means that the Dehler will sail with a lot more heel and can take a lot more heel without broaching, but that is just natural and it has to do with the different design philosophy.

Saying that I would say that they should have already mounted a twin rudder on the RM1200. That will make it more difficult to broach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post

I am not looking for a pilot huse as much as for a deck saloon. If I am anchored in the nature or in a busy harbour I would like to be able to see the scenery even at night or in bad weather.
You are not the only one. Me and my wife share your opinion. If she choose the boat she would settle for a Southerly 42 (we have not the money for one, so that settles the problem wit my wife) I want a fast boat, a good looking boat and one that can be fun to sail. The only relatively small one that I know that ticks all the boxes is the Luffe 43DS. My wife likes that one also, but unfortunately it is also too expensive for us. So I guess that we would have to live with a small port hull, just to have some view to the scenery.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 03-10-2011 at 07:14 PM.
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My kind of boats

Quote:
Originally Posted by nemier View Post
Hello PCP,
I'm just checking in, to see if you have made any decisions on your next boat purchase? I'm personally no further ahead, but I have not sold my existing boat yet so there is certainly not much I can do until that time comes. Hopefully this season eh?

I'm sitting in Dubai Airport running through this thread from start to finish (keeping me out of trouble for a few hours and I wondered if you have made your decision? If not, please reveal your short-list.

I'm finding this thread incredibly interesting. Thanks again for it.
Hi Nemier,

I missed you, please post more

Yes I guess that I have found my boat, but I am limited in what regards budget. I prefer not to say right now because it can bring bad luck . Let me see if all things go smoothly right and in 15 days I will know. Anyway the boat I will chose for me it is just the one that fits my criteria: Fast but relatively comfortable, one that I can find beautiful and one that I can sail solo and where I felt at home...but most of all, one that I can pay and that in many cases depend not only of the boat price but on the deal you can have...and I had some good offers. This is a good time to buy a new boat

If I didn't have a limited budget I would probably chose a Luffe 43ds. I would even be tempted by a "regular" Luffe 43, or I would wait one or two years for the one that is going to replace the Luffe 43. I think It is going to deserve the wait. Other boats that I would seriously consider: The Arcona 43 and The Grand Soleil 43, both beautiful and fast boats.

Now, the boats that I have been looking into and that fit my actual budget are the First 40 versus the Elan 380. The Elan 380 won. The First has not a decent anchor locker, neither a decent storage on the outside and the new CR is heavy and made in monolithic. I had a very good offer on a top of line Elan 380, carbon mast and all. Beautiful boat with a good interior. Very tempting. The boat costs not much more than the Elan 350 it is faster, and as I am not interested in racing and ratings, I would prefer it over the 350. Better interior better sea motion and better water tankage.

Those two would be the rational choice regarding my budget, but if I stretch it to the unreasonable limit or even a little beyond I would be dreaming about two other boats, the Dehler 40 versus the Salona 41.

Okay, the Dehler 40 is only in paper but that's why I can have a good price on it. I have looked at the drawings and I like it, all of it. I have been inside the 45 and I know the 40, as the 45, will have a sweet finish. Regarding the Salona 41, I have been several times inside the boat and I love it. Not so well finished as the Dehler but better than the Elan (the materials are better). The boat has also an inox steel grid to distribute the charges from the keel and the shrouds and I love the simplicity and efficiency of it. It is a item that only much more expensive boats have, like the X yachts, the Luffe or Grand Soleil.

Between the two I will chose the Salona, because even if they are selling the Dehler at an promotional (excellent) price, I can have a top boat with Salona while on the Dehler I would just have a standard boat and believe me a standard Dehler would make a big difference to a top Dehler 40, in price and in performance. For the price of a Standard Dehler you could have a Salona that can probably beat the top Dehler, not that I am interested in racing but it pisses me to be overtaken .

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-23-2013 at 12:26 PM.
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Hey guys, just to let you know: I have been told that RM has already started drawing the sucessor of the 1200.
I hope for a wider stern....
Ulf
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