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  #821  
Old 03-19-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slap View Post
On the Boreal 44, it looks like the chain is kept near the mast - very nice.
Yes, and 250 kg of chain is a lot of meters that can be very useful in really bad weather.

"A lot of work has been carried out to centralise weight and lower the centre of gravity of the boat. The chain locker (carrying up to 250 kg of chain) is at the mast foot. The chain goes below the deck through a tube from the bow to the locker.The engine and the batteries are in the keel box, placing the CG of the boat 400 mm below the water line and about 1400 mm further forward than in the case of its “classic” alternative. The ballast is housed in the keel box. Compared to a centreboarder, this again lowers the CG by several dozen cms. Unlike normal practice, we don’t pile up lead blocks as ballast. We construct moulds of every ballast compartment and we make massive lead blocks to fit each of them, resulting in a gain of 20 % in density. All this efforts contribute to an impressive stability curve".

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 03-19-2011 at 12:43 PM.
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  #822  
Old 03-30-2011
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Racer Cruiser 37 Footers

Hi Paulo

I have followed your posts on interesting sailboats for some time now and must say that you have taught me a great deal!

I live in Cape Town which is quite limited in terms of it's cruising potential - no islands, interesting coastlines and cold water - and so I intend buying a yacht and leaving it in the Mediterranean where my partner and I can go cruising initially for 3 months of the year and then in a few years for 6 months of the year. There are obviously many aspects to consider in terms of where to leave the yacht including VAT, mooring costs, hard fees, maintenance etc etc and whether to let a school or charter company use the yacht when we are not using it. I am currently inclined to leave the yacht in Croatia as it is very beautiful and geographically well positioned, to visit Greece, Italy and Turkey. Your thoughts on this as regards mooring, leaving the boat on the hard, VAT etc would be most useful.

As regards which yacht, my partner and I are not racers but would like to have a yacht which performs well; we participate in twilight racing in Cape Town and know for sure that we want a yacht which is exhilirating to sail. We are therefore interested in performance coastal cruisers as a category as opposed to bluewater cruisers. I started out looking at the large production boats - Beneteau Oceanis 37, Jeanneau 36i Performance and the Bavaria Cruiser 36 - and have since being looking at other brands including Hanse, Elan and Salona. We are keen on a yacht which is around 37 foot and which we can buy second hand for around Euro100,000.

Our shortlist of yachts, after comparing key stats for these to the X38c which I know is one of your favourites and which we have used as a kind of benchmark, includes the following which fall into our budget:

* Hanse 375 - D/L - 187, B/D - 31.8%, SA/D - 24.8, L/B - 3.03, motion comfort - 22.3

Very easy to sail, interiors don't suite everyone although I like them, a racer cruiser that is quite contemporary, loads of options

* Salona 37 - D/L - 167, B/D - 37.3%, SA/D - 26.7, L/B - 3.14, motion comfort - 20.6

Definitely a racer cruiser, I like the way they do their hull with the ss skeleton but I think the boat looks quite dated with its small ports and is too light - the later models are heavier, look better but are over our budget.

* Elan Impression 384 - D/L - 211; B/D - 32.6%; SA/D - 20; L/B - 2.95; motion comfort - 23.5

More of a cruiser/racer than the other 2 so not directly comparable but a very good compromise in terms of seaworthiness, performance and comfort and quite underrated from what I can see. Probably closer in nature to the X38c

I love the Elan 380 but it is out of our budget and the elan 350 is probably too small and also too expensive after you have added all the options.

I know that you are very keen on the Salona in particular (Salona 41) and also like the Elan's. I was wandering if you had any specific views on the yachts listed above - pluses and minuses - and if you feel I have missed out any other obvious candidate? the dehler, grand soleil and arcona yachts are awesome but obove our budget I am afraid.

I hope you don't mind me asking you all of these questions but you are clearly very experienced and I you don't seem to mind sharing all of your knowledge.

All the best

David
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  #823  
Old 03-30-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daviid View Post
Hi Paulo

I have followed your posts on interesting sailboats for some time now and must say that you have taught me a great deal!

I live in Cape Town which is quite limited in terms of it's cruising potential - no islands, interesting coastlines and cold water - and so I intend buying a yacht and leaving it in the Mediterranean where my partner and I can go cruising initially for 3 months of the year and then in a few years for 6 months of the year. There are obviously many aspects to consider in terms of where to leave the yacht including VAT, mooring costs, hard fees, maintenance etc etc and whether to let a school or charter company use the yacht when we are not using it. I am currently inclined to leave the yacht in Croatia as it is very beautiful and geographically well positioned, to visit Greece, Italy and Turkey. Your thoughts on this as regards mooring, leaving the boat on the hard, VAT etc would be most useful.

As regards which yacht, my partner and I are not racers but would like to have a yacht which performs well; we participate in twilight racing in Cape Town and know for sure that we want a yacht which is exhilirating to sail. We are therefore interested in performance coastal cruisers as a category as opposed to bluewater cruisers. I started out looking at the large production boats - Beneteau Oceanis 37, Jeanneau 36i Performance and the Bavaria Cruiser 36 - and have since being looking at other brands including Hanse, Elan and Salona. We are keen on a yacht which is around 37 foot and which we can buy second hand for around Euro100,000.

Our shortlist of yachts, after comparing key stats for these to the X38c which I know is one of your favourites and which we have used as a kind of benchmark, includes the following which fall into our budget:

* Hanse 375 - D/L - 187, B/D - 31.8%, SA/D - 24.8, L/B - 3.03, motion comfort - 22.3

Very easy to sail, interiors don't suite everyone although I like them, a racer cruiser that is quite contemporary, loads of options

* Salona 37 - D/L - 167, B/D - 37.3%, SA/D - 26.7, L/B - 3.14, motion comfort - 20.6

Definitely a racer cruiser, I like the way they do their hull with the ss skeleton but I think the boat looks quite dated with its small ports and is too light - the later models are heavier, look better but are over our budget.

* Elan Impression 384 - D/L - 211; B/D - 32.6%; SA/D - 20; L/B - 2.95; motion comfort - 23.5

More of a cruiser/racer than the other 2 so not directly comparable but a very good compromise in terms of seaworthiness, performance and comfort and quite underrated from what I can see. Probably closer in nature to the X38c

I love the Elan 380 but it is out of our budget and the elan 350 is probably too small and also too expensive after you have added all the options.

I know that you are very keen on the Salona in particular (Salona 41) and also like the Elan's. I was wandering if you had any specific views on the yachts listed above - pluses and minuses - and if you feel I have missed out any other obvious candidate? the dehler, grand soleil and arcona yachts are awesome but obove our budget I am afraid.

I hope you don't mind me asking you all of these questions but you are clearly very experienced and I you don't seem to mind sharing all of your knowledge.

All the best

David
Thanks David for your nice words. Welcome to this thread and welcome to sailnet.

About Croatia I have charted a boat 15 days last summer and I have loved it. I know well West Med (Coast of Spain, Balearic Islands, Sardinia, Elba, Corsica and part of Italy) and can tell you that Croatia is an incredible cruising ground, not only by the variety of sheltered places but because it offer almost always sheltered waters, no matter the wind direction, behind the Islands (+ 2000) even if the wind can be in the spring quite strong.

Regarding Croatia and places to have the boat I am picking and when I finish I will tell you, if you want ( by private message) my findings. Before that I would not post it on the net

Take a look at this thread:

Croatia is The Place

and take a look at the marinas. There are more but these give you an idea about the price. It is quite hard to get an annual place there, most of the marinas are full:

Adriatic Croatia International Club // aci-club.hr

You can see prices and download a brochure and it will give you an idea about the place (beautiful).

Regarding the boat the Hanse choice seems well to me but the Hanse are tricky boats to buy. Their standard boat is quite naked and you can buy a huge quantity of extras that can make it a very good sailing boat...and also an an expensive boat. You have to look well at what you are buying. They can be very different, starting by the hull (epoxy or not).

The Elan 385 is a different boat, as to do more with the Oceanis line. I find it better built but it is not a boat that you can enjoy sailing as you do with an Elan, First or Salona. I would not look at that motion comfort ratio. In my opinion it is quite meaningless (you don't know if a boat has fine entries, the bow shape and so on).

Used boats are much dependent of what you can find but if you are staying in Croatia you can buy a boat with the VAT not paid. It will be less expensive and you still can sail to Greece or any other place for a 3 months period. But probably the best idea would be to buy a boat with the leasing going on. That means that the boat would cost you less, you will pay a rent each month and in the end the boat stays in your name (there are so many boats in leasing because that way you pay only 50% VAT and if you look on the adds it says on many that the boat can be sold with leasing).

Regarding boats that offer good interior space and that are on your price range I would add the Salona 40 and The Elan 40 and my preferred would be the Dufour 40 performance even if this one goes slightly out of your budget, but with a leasing going on....

I know that you have talked about 36ft/37ft but I am afraid that if you go for a boat that size you would have to be more concerned with interior storage, size of water tanks and so on. What I want to say is that if you go for a 37ft you would have to go for a more pure cruising type of boat, like the Oceanis 36 or a Bavaria 38. This kind of boats have the same cruising capacities (tankage, storage) as the more fast and enjoyable to sail Elan 40 or Dufour 40, but with less speed, less sailing fun and less seaworthiness, if you ever consider to cross the Atlantic or bring it to South Africa.

I know, I have sailed many years in a Bavaria 36 and when I went to boat shows with my wife I was always hearing her complaing about the lack of storage and tankage of much bigger boats compared with the 36ft we had.

If you really want a 37ft I believe the Hanse 375 is the one that offers the best compromise between storage, speed and sailing pleasure...but as I have said on the used market you really have to look at each boat before buying, they are all different even the ones that are supposedly equal

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 03-30-2011 at 11:03 AM.
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  #824  
Old 03-31-2011
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Hi Paolo

"Regarding Croatia and places to have the boat I am picking and when I finish I will tell you, if you want ( by private message) my findings. Before that I would not post it on the net"

I am most certainly keen to hear your findings via private message!

Thanks for the input. Any idea of how I can go about finding previous models of Beneteau's First collection. They have a new website which looks very sparkly but I don't see any reference to previous models?

All the best, David
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  #825  
Old 04-01-2011
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Rumor has it, a 379 will be on the market this fall, no details yet, but it will not be a direct replacement for the 36i, details are to be like the 409/439 etc..........more to follow.........

Marty
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  #826  
Old 04-01-2011
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Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
Rumor has it, a 379 will be on the market this fall, no details yet, but it will not be a direct replacement for the 36i, details are to be like the 409/439 etc..........more to follow.........

Marty
That makes sense. Do you know Jeanneau is preparing a 409 to race in IRC 2?

They have a longer mast dyform rigging and top sails. The skipper will be Hervé Piveteau, winner of the Mini series in 2007. He is also the guy that is in charge of the Jeanneau marketing. It seems that Jeanneau is surrounded by guys that love fast sailing and that's a good sign

Regards

Paulo
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  #827  
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Paulo,

I had not heard about the racing in IRC2. I did see a note on Facebook from jeanneau USA, that a 409 won its first race a week or so ago. There is a "P"erformance version that looks way hotter than the "i" P versions. The mast was about 3-4' taller vs typically a foot for the i versions. Kinda one of them, WHY only a foot? Maybe this current hull form will handle more mast height along with the SArea, then depending upon the keel design on the deep version.......

The fellow that broke the 379 news on the owners site, thinks a 319, 349 and perhaps a 469 might arrive in 2012..... hard to say. The 379 has a full shower seperate from the Head and sink even with a 3 room setup. Usually only the twin bed room setups got that, the triple rooms got an all in one shower/head/sink. Twin wheels also. No design concept pics as of yet. Probably (my swag) a month or two out.

The 349 might be a nice boat for my useage if I can afford one, depending upon the design specs. Especially if it is closer to 35 than 34'. I liked the size of the SO/SF35. The SF35 was quite quick for what it was too.

Right now, jeanneaus design spec is performance cruiser, but reality is, they are pushing well into the cruise/race, almost into the slower nicer interior of some of the race/cruiser boat IMHO. Need to get to the local dealer and look at the 409 they have in stock one of these days.....

marty
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  #828  
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Something is changing in what regards the Design of performance cruisers. The first was probably the Pogo 10.50 (with its 3 years waiting list) but the first really mass production boat was the Elan 350. What have these boats that made them special?

They were not designed for handicap racing, they were not optimized for ORCi, IRC nor for any rating system, they were optimized for pure speed and performance, not for handicap racing. Optimizing a boat for handicap racing is making it unnecessarily slow and not developing it to its full speed potential.

And I say that it is changing because Maxy yacht, a very Conservative brand that makes beautiful and expensive conventional performance yachts is taking a completely new approach on the development of its new 11m boat. They have sent inquiries to all the ones that love their yachts, me included asking how should the boat be developed and maximized: For ORCi, for IRC, SRS or just to its max potential, fast and fun, no mater handicap racing.

Well the news are that 76% of the sailors said FAST and FUN, F...Handicap racing and the results translated in design seems to be these:



I like it

Now compare this boat with the other boats on its line:

Startpage

I tell you, something is changing on the way performance cruising boats are designed

Last edited by PCP; 04-01-2011 at 07:24 PM.
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The Fast is Fun IIRC started with the Santa Cruz line in CA years ago. J's IIRC are still designed this way to a degree. Design to be fast, easy to sail, the ratings will be what they will be! In the end, who cares, as long as one likes the boats. Good to see this type of design speak/quest if you will, and not make some of the abominable creations IOR created in the later stages years ago. Reality is, some unsafe boats too!

Need to go back to setting up some spin pole outhaul lines to try tomorrow. have quite the fleet to deal with.....11 total boats, I am the third slowest per say, fasted boat is about 33 secs a mile faster. BUT< 4 boats are slower, one at 3, 3 at 6 secs slow, one ea 3 and 6 faster.......7 of 11 boats pretty much 1d in nature, all about 27-31' in length...... 15-25 knots of wind predicted..... should be fun!

marty
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Here is the boats and splits.......

BlueJeans 39742 C & C 27-3 201 Milltown

Lady too 59382 San Juan 28 201 STYC

Scotch & Soda 5008 Catalina 30 Sloop 201 Milltown

Rev 447 Thunderbird 198 STYC

Amoretto 79104 Jeanneau 195 CYCE

Moonshine 27696 Yankee 30 192 STYC

Cricket 0 Irwin Citation 31 189 STYC

Ablissian 79148 Cascade 36 180 STYC

Evergreen Dreams 1409 Catalina 36 MKII 174 RVYC

Sea Trek II 69326 Catalina 34 171 STYC

Boadicea n/a Ericson 32-3 162
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