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  #841  
Old 04-05-2011
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Dear Paulo,
You mentioned earlier a french test between a Pogo 12.50, Dufour 40e and Wauquiez Opium 39. I have tried to find it in a format that Ican run through Google translate but I did not even find a pdf. Could you or some one else here that understand french make a summary, especially about the comparison between opium and Dufour. The Opium is high up on my short list now.
Brgds, Anders
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  #842  
Old 04-06-2011
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On design - Narrow boat / beamy boat

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
....
You should read this boat test:

YouTube - Match au sommet voiliers de 40 pieds !

They have made a comparison between a Dufour 40e, an Opium 39 and a Pogo 40 cruising (12.50 prototype). The wind was a good force 5 and the sea had short waves. Close to the wind the speed were the same (7.5), with the Opium (with a worst sail, the original was stolen) making less 5º to the true wind.

They have said that the Dufour is a little better with winds lighter than 20K and the Pogo a bit better over 20k. The Dufour is more comfortable and passes better the short waves, the Pogo passes in power (I believe that is why he needs more wind to be faster than the Dufour).

Downwind the Pogo rules with 12k with the other boats making 8/9K.

...
Anders,

Do you have saw that post?

That's about it. I would have made a much better test , the French are sometimes a bit vague. I would have liked that test to be performed by Yacht magazine (Germans) and we would then have a better and more informative test.

I have already test sailed the Opium 39 and I have loved it. I only did not like the performance under engine, but I think that it would be the same with the Pogo. It has probably to do with the hull shape. As I had loved the Opium speed, the big surprise on that test for me was the Dufour 40e performance. It was really very good, and they say the boat is more comfortable upwind and slightly faster with less wind.

The head sail of the Opium 39 was not appropriated (it was stolen and substituted with an improvised one) and they say that the boat was making less 5º upwind probably on account of that. I believe that with a lot of wind (+20K) the Opium would be faster than the Dufour but with 20K they say they were going the same speed Downwind.

With 20K the Pogo is really faster downwind (about 3 K with 20K wind).

After reading that test and another test between a boat very similar to the Pogo and a J 133, where they concluded that the Pogo like type is only better for long downwind cruising, kind of trade winds, I had asked myself what kind of winds I normally get?

On the Med I have not done a lot of downwind sailing, but I can remember a lot of upwind sailing so I started to look for a fast boat with good downwind performance but mostly with an excellent up wind performance and also one with an outstanding performance in weak wind cause I really don't want to turn the engine on. I have sailed many times with weak winds and with the Bavaria I had to motor a lot. I want also a boat with a comfortable interior one that I can enjoy.

Taking all these in consideration I have decided that for me the Salona 41 was the boat that make more sense. It is faster than the Dufour 40e and after what they say on that comparative test, that's fast enough for me but I guess that with a 2.25m draft it makes no sense to you.

But they are all fast boats (those on the test and the Salona) and the Pogo is the fastest downwind no doubt and by a large margin. In the end it is a personal decision that has much to do with what you like. For giving this kind of money for a boat you really have to like it a lot not only in what regards sailing but also in what regards living aboard, and off course, you have to love the way it looks and be proud of it.

I have never been inside a cruising Pogo but I think it really is to spartan for me, not for sailing but for living aboard for extended periods. But maybe you are not living aboard much time and that is not much important to you. If I was in your place I would take a look at the interior of an Opium and if you and your wife find it a lot more comfortable than the one from the Pogo and if you think that is important, I would test sail the Opium 39 just to see if it is fast enough and fun enough for you. After all it seems to me that you want a fast boat with small draft and the options are not many

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-23-2013 at 12:49 PM.
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  #843  
Old 04-07-2011
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Hi Paulo,
Thank you for your feed back. As I wrote before, these kinds of contradictionary test results, if one can say that, is still confusing me. Yacht and other magazines praise the Opium and Elan 350 as the future and as very fun and fast boats. At the same time they do not seem that fast and not so willing to plane downwind.

A shallow draft is not a must for us even if the 2,15 on the Opium starts to be close to acceptable.
Regards, Anders
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  #844  
Old 04-07-2011
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Originally Posted by PCP
....
You should read this boat test:

YouTube - Match au sommet voiliers de 40 pieds !

....

that was the "old" POGO 40.
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  #845  
Old 04-07-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bb74 View Post
Originally Posted by PCP
....
You should read this boat test:

YouTube - Match au sommet voiliers de 40 pieds !

....

that was the "old" POGO 40.
Yes you are right, but as you know the Pogo 12.50 is really a 40ft boat. I don't think that there is any relevant difference in what regards performance (that was also the testers opinion, and if I understood well the shipyard opinion).

Regards

Paulo
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  #846  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
Hi Paulo,
Thank you for your feed back. As I wrote before, these kinds of contradictionary test results, if one can say that, is still confusing me. Yacht and other magazines praise the Opium and Elan 350 as the future and as very fun and fast boats. At the same time they do not seem that fast and not so willing to plane downwind.

A shallow draft is not a must for us even if the 2,15 on the Opium starts to be close to acceptable.
Regards, Anders
Anders,

They are very fast boats, and the Pogo 12.50 is the fastest downwind but we are comparing them with other performance very fast boats. The 12.50 is faster downwind but would be less fast and comfortable upwind with waves and a formed sea than for instance a Salona 41, a J122 or a First 40 (performance version). At least is what the race results show and not with the cruising version but with the racing version. I have already posted about the comparative results on several Sydney-Hobarts, mostly an upwind race.

And those other boats also plane downwind, just not as easy and not so fast.

I would say that in what regards performance boats you have two tendencies that are represented by those boats we are talking about: J122, First, Salona, X yacht, Luffe, and on the other side: Elan 350, Pogo, Kobe and so on.

The first are better upwind (with waves) the second are better downwind (that does not mean that they are slow upwind) and more easy to sail, specially downwind.

They are all fun and fast boats. The choice is yours. If you have doubts just try both types.

If you can accept a 2.1 draft I would not go for a swing keel, I would be afraid of maintenance problems. Mechanically that seems to me a lot more complicated than a lifting keel and the forces needed are a lot bigger.

Even the Pogo has fixed keels with reasonable draft, as the Salona or the J122 ( a like it a lot, with the exception of the price ).

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 04-07-2011 at 06:52 AM.
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  #847  
Old 04-07-2011
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I also read the so-called "comparative test" in Bateaux last year and certainly agree that it was a not well designed. But there were also no real surprises: the heavier Dufour was most comfortable upwind although the Opium and Pogo were not slower. As soon as one bears down a little, the lighter and more beamy Opium and Pogo beat the Dufour, except dead downwind when the symmetrical spinaker on the Dufour is more efficient.

This is also what we experienced during a one week sail with the Pogo 10.50. Not trying to sail too close to the wind makes the yacht much easier, with no real loss of VMG. An experienced Pogo 40 skipper we met before put it this way: these boats sail like a 470 dinghy, just bear down a little and enjoy.

The tested Pogo 40 and the Pogo 12.50, which is the new cruising version, are quite different. No more runners and not even a backstay but only very aft speaders, no more ballast tanks but only a distinctive chine in the hull. And very different deck and interior lay-outs, that have been redesigned for cruising purposes.

The most disputable item is again the interior, not only for Paulo , but at least it worked very well for us on the 10.50. Although I must admit that the broad smiles on both our son's faces when sailing double digit speeds probably somewhat influenced my beloved wife's opinion...

But I see you don't like canting keels either, Paulo. Although the Finot system seems to be well validated, starting with the First 22, then the First Class 8 and now on the Pogo 10.50, plus an increasing number of other French brands like Django and Malango. Have I missed the bad news?

Anyway, we will of course keep you updated as soon as our 12.50 will have become reality (ETA: next October).

Best regards,

Eric
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  #848  
Old 04-07-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post
...
But I see you don't like canting keels either, Paulo. Although the Finot system seems to be well validated, starting with the First 22, then the First Class 8 and now on the Pogo 10.50, plus an increasing number of other French brands like Django and Malango. Have I missed the bad news?

Anyway, we will of course keep you updated as soon as our 12.50 will have become reality (ETA: next October).
No, I don't know of any reports regarding problems with the swinging keels of any of those boats and I like the concept it is just that I don't really need a small draft and I am a believer of the principle "Keep it simple".

The keel of the 12.50 is much heavier than any of those boats and the efforts to put the keel up and down are really big, but if the system is well designed and dimensioned should work well and give you some years without maintenance, but it is one more boat system that sooner or later will need maintenance.

Saying that if I lived on the North Coast of France, England or Holland, I would probably trade that possible maintenance issue by the advantages the low draft gives on those regions

Yes, please keep me posted. It is possible that I manage to have a boat late on the next summer, if so you are invited to sail it and then we can really compare the plus and minus of each boat just for the fun of it

Regards

Paulo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
It is possible that I manage to have a boat late on the next summer, if so you are invited to sail it and then we can really compare the plus and minus of each boat just for the fun of it
And I would of course be very happy if there would be any chance to welcome you on board our boat Paulo, not only to have your expert opinion.

So you quite made up your mind about your own new yacht? I think everybody on this thread is very interested to hear about Paulo's final choice!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post
And I would of course be very happy if there would be any chance to welcome you on board our boat Paulo, not only to have your expert opinion.

So you quite made up your mind about your own new yacht? I think everybody on this thread is very interested to hear about Paulo's final choice!
I would be very glad to meat you and sail a Pogo 12.50 but I am no expert. I like boats and I like to learn but I have yet a lot to learn .

Regarding my boat that means my choice, I hope it is an informed one, but that's just my choice of compromises including price and that's why I prefer to say nothing till I manage (or not) the boat I am after. If not I would probably buy a second hand boat and that would limit my choices to what is available.

If I had the money for it an Opium 39 would be an option. I am not sure about the Pogo 12.50, not about the sailing, that would be perfect, but about the interior. Never been inside one and I just don't know if it suits me (and my wife) for living aboard for some months. Anyway that it is not a problem because it is also too expensive for my budget .

Anders,
some more information about the Opium 39.

I think Erick is right and that in open courses the Opium 39 is faster than the Dufour 40e even if a bit slower than the Pogo 12.50.

I have already said that my preferred magazine is Yacht magazine, a German one and I like the way they test the boats. They have said very well from the Dufour 40e, more than very well from the Salona 42 (the 41 with one wheel) but they really went ballistic with the Opium 39.

The measured speeds where:

Dufour 40e with 11 to 15K wind:

40º - 7.2K 60º - 8K 90º - 8.7K 130º - 8.3K 180º - 7.2K

Engine at 80% (40Ps) - 7.5K


Salona 42 with 8 to 10K wind:

40º - 5.8K 60º - 7.3K 90º - 8.3K 130º - 7.0K 170º - 6.2K

Engine at 80% (40Ps) - 8K



Opium 39 with 8 to 11K wind:

45º - 7.9K 60º - 9.3K 90º - 9.0K 130º - 7.8K

Engine at 80% (29 Ps) - 5.5K ( I have tried one with a 40 PS engine and the speed was not much better).


They have not tested the Pogo 12.50 but I am sure it will be a bit faster than the Opium 39 with identical sailing characteristics.

This is not the same has having the boats at the water at the same time but will give at least an idea.

Anders, I hope this helps, but nothing as test sail the boats if you can

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 04-07-2011 at 05:01 PM.
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