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post #881 of 6763 Old 04-21-2011
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Paulo certainly has a lot of time on his hands surfing the net for interesting (and sometimes weird boats. It would have been nice if he was knowledgeable enough to discuss their features in an adult manner. I’ve been thinking about the 10.2 boat and am curious about that retractable keel and what purpose does it truly serve? Do you think they do it to reduce surface area for running down wind? Never seen that before. The other thing that got me to wondering is the extreme faceted shape of the hull. I understand that hard chines are “in” now, but this is extreme. Then I thought, perhaps they don’t have the techniques to shape a curved surface. With all the surfboard building down in Santa Cruz (home of the “fast is fun” crowd). We take curved surfaces for granted. Even the one-off Newland 36 I used to sail on was very nicely shaped. The one thing I do know, if that 10.2 doesn’t maintain good fore and aft trim, suction is going to take over and It’s performance is going to suffer.
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post #882 of 6763 Old 04-21-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeB View Post
am curious about that retractable keel and what purpose does it truly serve? Do you think they do it to reduce surface area for running down wind? Never seen that before.
George, something like that is not so special. It is not about sailing performance but made for shallow anchorages and marinas. Pogo Structures nicely promotes it's swing keel with photos of the yacht very close to the beach - similar to a catamaran.
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post #883 of 6763 Old 04-21-2011
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I saw a Pogo “mini” on a trailer at the boat show, but I am unfamiliar with the one you’re talking about. Got a link? I really don’t think that the Fox 10.2 was intended to be a gunk holer. 12 gallons of useable diesel, 15 HP engine, twin rudders, anchor stowed in the aft lazarette really more the features of an ocean racer than something you want to explore the back creeks with IMHO. Are the Europeans much for mooring fields? What are the tidal changes in the Med? Perhaps they need to retract for low tides? Or perhaps the boat was meant to be dry sailed and they want it to squat lower on its trailer or jack stands like an Antrim 27?
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post #884 of 6763 Old 04-21-2011 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeB View Post
Am I assuming that you personally took those photographs? Do you know the owners and can you provide some details? I don’t read French so you have to help me out. ... What race are they going to do? ...I’ve been thinking about the 10.2 boat and am curious about that retractable keel and what purpose does it truly serve? Do you think they do it to reduce surface area for running down wind?

I am unfamiliar with the European horsepower rating. Can you convert it to HP? I am guessing that it is about 15 HP which was about the size on the ULDB I used to race on.
No, I didn't take personally the photos and I don't know personally the owner.

They are not going to do any race, this is not a race boat, they are going to circumnavigate (a couple) and thats what this boat is equipped and designed for.

The retractable keel has nothing to do with sailing but with cruising. To have a good upwind performance and maximize ballast this boat has all the ballast in a deep bulb and consequently a draft of 2.40m. That is too much for cruising so this boat has a lifting keel that permits it to have a very small draft for anchoring near the shore protection (1.3m) and also a deep draft for better sailing performance (better upwind pointing, less need of ballast).

19cv is about 19hp.

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The other thing that got me to wondering is the extreme faceted shape of the hull. I understand that hard chines are “in” now, but this is extreme. Then I thought, perhaps they don’t have the techniques to shape a curved surface. With all the surfboard building down in Santa Cruz (home of the “fast is fun” crowd). We take curved surfaces for granted. Even the one-off Newland 36 I used to sail on was very nicely shaped.
That is a plywood-epoxy boat and curved surfaces are a problem but even in modern performance carbon hulls where curved surfaces are not a problem designers found out that chines, if well designed improved performance. Top racers all have chines now. Its "in" because they work, not because it is a fashion. Chines are old news to racing boats, they are starting to be used on cruising boats. These guys design race boats, they know what they are doing.

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I saw a Pogo “mini” on a trailer at the boat show, but I am unfamiliar with the one you’re talking about. Got a link?
The Pogo mini is a racer, we are talking about Pogo cruisers, the 10.50 and the 12.50. Use the search engine on this thread and you will get plenty information.

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Originally Posted by GeorgeB View Post

I really don’t think that the Fox 10.2 was intended to be a gunk holer. 12 gallons of useable diesel, 15 HP engine, twin rudders, anchor stowed in the aft lazarette really more the features of an ocean racer than something you want to explore the back creeks with IMHO. Are the Europeans much for mooring fields? What are the tidal changes in the Med? Perhaps they need to retract for low tides? Or perhaps the boat was meant to be dry sailed and they want it to squat lower on its trailer or jack stands like an Antrim 27?
This is not a trailer boat, the engine has 19hp and that seems enough for 3800kg. The sail qualities of this boat and its ability to sail in very weak winds will make that engine really an auxiliary. This is a sailboat and they want to sail it

In the Med there are almost no tides, in the Atlantic Coast of France the tides are big.

Again, we are talking of a boat that is prepared to circumnavigate, so that small draft is a bonus everywhere and increase the ability to look for shelter in bad weather.

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Paulo certainly has a lot of time on his hands surfing the net for interesting (and sometimes weird boats. It would have been nice if he was knowledgeable enough to discuss their features in an adult manner.
Well, that is not nice and it is incongruous from someone that confounds a performance cruiser with a racer and make so many obvious questions

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 04-21-2011 at 05:52 PM.
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post #885 of 6763 Old 04-21-2011 Thread Starter
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Quote:
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paulo,

I looked in here for the first time in a few days. the Bieker 35.....do not quote me, but I think I may have mentioned it earlier in this thread. I probably referred to it as a riptide 35, as that is how I know her, with Bieker as the designer. I remember the first time seeing her sailing, she was moving in some less than 5 knot winds, everyone else seemed to be standing still, including us in a C&C 115.

Boat was initially designed for Jon McKee. He now has a 45'ish foot, a bit nicer than the 35. I do not know if it is as fast per say. IE compare the 35 to other 35's, she is on the faster end of things. the 45 has not from what I have seen raced and won a lot of races like the 35. One persons opinion of 2 local boats here in Puget Sound where Pudding and I in habit.

Marty
Marty,

I remember you talking about the riptide 35 but I did not know the boat. for what you have said I understood that was a fast boat but I had no information. Puddinlegs pointed some impressive race results and I got curious and find out they are making a MKII, a new model.

I found specially interesting the new drawings, the ones that have less details and show a even more modern boat, with twin rudders and aggressive very modern lines.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 04-22-2011 at 08:06 AM.
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post #886 of 6763 Old 04-22-2011
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Paulo,

Do not quote me, but I recall 2 boats being made of the R35 initially. Terromoto and one other. Not sure where that one is. mark/Puddinglegs may, as he sails out of the marina south of me that has MOST of the bigger races here in Puget Sound, and the boat he mainly races on is one of the faster/better raced rigs on the sound. Altho at 18 phrf, the Farr 39 is not the fastest. That usually is Neptune Carr, a santa cruz70. An older Aligani is also ont he sound, with a -270 or some such rating as compared to the Carr at -66 or some number. Not sure what the IRC equal would be. 100phrf is supposed to be pretty close or equal from what I understand to be a 1.000 irc.

Marty

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post #887 of 6763 Old 04-22-2011 Thread Starter
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Guys, I bought today the May edition of "Voiles et Voiliers" and surprise, surprise, I found out they had sail tested the Fox 10.20. It seems that it is not only me that find this performance cruiser interesting.

Opposite of what normally occurs when sail magazines test cruising boats, this one was full loaded. The reason? Adrien and is wife were leaving for their circumnavigation 24 hours after: Full tanks, all the provisions, auxiliary boat and engine and even two bycicles

They have said about the sailing performance (translated):

Directionally stable, and always very responsive at the tiller, the boat is powerful and light due to a lead bulb situated 2.4m under the water.

The boat is fast and well balanced despite the load needed to the program . It accelerates quickly it is fun to sail, stay in its groove and gives a big desire to sail away.

The Fox 10.20 is globally a safe and fun boat with a sportive character and is a credible alternative to the Pogo and the RM.


Voiles et Voiliers : Essais et comparatifs - Fox 10.20 (Technologie Marine / Bertrand)

And now the best part, the measured speeds (with a fully loaded boat):

With 12K wind

at 50ºTW - 7.5K ......... 80ºTW - 8.5K .........130ºTW - 10K

The price is also a nice surprise for an almost custom boat:

165 000€ for a boat ready to sail away. The Pogo 10.50 costs 151 500€ but it seems to me that it has less equipment and has a worse interior. Besides with this one you can really have a say in all things, including interior, rigging, tankage and almost anything, you can really fit the boat to your needs and that is a rare thing that normally costs a lot of money.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 04-22-2011 at 08:57 AM.
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post #888 of 6763 Old 04-22-2011
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Can't please anyone these days.... As for as the derogatory comments on these boards, it's juvenile. Nobody is telling anyone to buy one of these boats, simply increasing awareness of the multitude of designs out there on the market today. If that get's some people bent out of shape, then they have much bigger problems in life.

Keep them coming Paulo!
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post #889 of 6763 Old 04-23-2011 Thread Starter
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Voile magazine tested the Allurse 45, the boat I have posted recently in post 996. This one:







It was a several days test (they call it 100nm even if sometimes is more). They have loved the boat and its live aboard potential. They have said about it (translated):

With 1m draft the Allures 45 give the happiness of the most improbable docking and therefore visit the most remote places not to mention the standing in beautiful places.

Nice looking and effective design...a XXL galley with a big frigo with two separated compartments, plenty of storage...a long course cruiser and a boat to live aboard...with a very good isolation...the comfort of a live aboard boat...a magnificent voyage boat...a very well built boat, intelligent and well designed in all the details, a boat that justifies the price (355 188€ with 20% French tax).

Sailing: with 12K wind against the wind, best with 50º, it makes about 5K, the normal performance for this type of boat. At 90º with 14/15K wind at 90º the boat makes more than 8K.

Engine: With the 55Hp engine the boat has an economic cruising speed of 5.2K and a max speed of 6.4 hp. The boat as an option for a 75hp engine that will give a better average speed and will waste less fuel.


They did not talked about it, probably they have not tested it but this kind of boat can be quite fast on the strong trade winds, going downwind with the keel up. It can easily go a little above hull speed and make 10/12K with ease and comfort.

As I have already said, a very interesting boat for the ones that want to go far with comfort and with the possibility of exploring all corners of the world, with the advantage and safety of a strong aluminum hull.

Regards

Paulo
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post #890 of 6763 Old 04-25-2011
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Hi everybody,
I earlier asked for access to RM 1060-video withouthaving a subscrition. I think I found it at this link:
Voiles et Voiliers : Essais et comparatifs - RM 1060 : un baroudeur embourgeoisé

Paulo, you mentioned that the retailer in France has sold an Opium with some necessary improvments to the rig. What did you mean more specifically, I can not find that particular boat on the web anymore?

The Fox 10.20 looks interesting, and in addition to that they have an 11.60 on the web. Strange that no one else has a 11.50, everybody goes from 10.50 to 12.50. For me the 11.50, like the Opium, would be the perfect size.

Regards,
Anders
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