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  #931  
Old 05-02-2011
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Originally Posted by bjung View Post
Most of the boats in the last few pages share one puzzling little detail. No handholds below, some even missing above. Has safety become an option?
What are you talking about?. I see plenty of handholds on the Azuree 40, the Grand Soleil 39 is only a drawing , the Xp44 and the Fox 10.20 have plenty and only the Comet 38 seems to lack them

Regards

Paulo
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  #932  
Old 05-02-2011
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On post 296, pag 30 I have posted about the new Dehler 41.

There are now more pictures and I know more about the boat. Fact is that in between I got really interested in it and not only for this thread but as my next boat. They are offering a very good price for the first boats and that with a good discount allied to the fact that it is these kind of boats I prefer almost made it for me .

So why not? Well this boat, like the First 40, is really two boats in one. One heavy (8300k) balsa cored and another one lighter, airex cored and with a much higher specification. The first one that they call Standard, or cruising, is not expensive the second one is. The first is going to be slow for a performance boat (but not for a regular cruiser), the second is going to be alright.

Well, I like the expensive and fast one but for that price I can have better and also the picture of the interior is not very appealing, with all that white and the mast on the middle of the boat...sure the Dehlers have a sweet finish and interior quality, but after having looked at that interior picture I would not have bought one without have seen it for real.

The boat is not as narrow as the Salona or the Grand Soleil, a bit more than the First and less than the Dufour 40e and will have a relatively high ballsat/displacement ratio. Lots of stability on this one, it will be a stiff boat that would take a lot of wind before reffing and a seaworthy boat.

The heavier version will be a very good bluewater cruising boat but not really a performance boat. The lighter version will be both things, I mean a performance boat and a good cruiser, but it will be more expensive than the Dufour 40e, the Elan 410 or the Salona 41. Anyway, less expensive than what the Dehlers used to be.

It is really a nice looking boat and I dont mean the interior . That one I have to see for real. A huge step forward regarding the old Dehler 39, a good boat but that should have been replaced sooner for a more modern and faster boat. Well, itīs done














Last edited by PCP; 05-02-2011 at 08:00 PM.
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  #933  
Old 05-02-2011
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Nice boat the Dehler though I've always had a soft spot for them. In reality however I don't see that it has serious appeal for me but that may be simply a case of me getting old.

Paulo, we sailed up the coast over Easter. 80nm run up to Port Stephens. Typical NSW SW conditions. Breeze 15- 20 out of the SW, swell out the SE. We plonked along at 6.5 - 7.5 with the occasional burst of 8.5 off the bottom of the odd wave. To be honest, I'm not sure I want to go much faster than that particularly in those conditions which are fairly typical of the NSW coast.
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  #934  
Old 05-03-2011
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Originally Posted by tdw View Post
Nice boat the Dehler though I've always had a soft spot for them. In reality however I don't see that it has serious appeal for me but that may be simply a case of me getting old.

Paulo, we sailed up the coast over Easter. 80nm run up to Port Stephens. Typical NSW SW conditions. Breeze 15- 20 out of the SW, swell out the SE. We plonked along at 6.5 - 7.5 with the occasional burst of 8.5 off the bottom of the odd wave. To be honest, I'm not sure I want to go much faster than that particularly in those conditions which are fairly typical of the NSW coast.
Nice to see you are having fun I don't know what currents you have there but I can tell you that even the cruiser version "heavy" Dehler 41 would make that trip with a two more K average speed than your steel 34ft Van de Stadt.

Some on this thread would say that the Dehler is way to slow and want a boat that can make that trip in half the time and that would not be difficult with a Pogo 12.50. Some would say that they could not care less about the speed and would be happy to go slower with some small traditional full keel boat (even if you don't find many of those on this thread ).

The way each of us enjoy sailing is a particular one and speed is sometimes part of the equation. I love speed but I have done (and probably I am going to continue to do) a lot of upwind and light wind sailing, so my priorities are for a fast boat that can sail very well in very light winds and that can go easily and comfortably upwind. but my wife that does not sail the boat (she is reading all the time) also wants a fast boat

I explain: We make a lot of 80nm legs, like 10 days in a row and that means in a 6K boat to sail out at 7.0 AM and to arrive at 8.30 PM after a nice sailing day. Normally we chose some nice place to stop but we do not enjoy the place as we would like. We only manage to make a landfall (after storing the boat and having a shower) at about 9.30 , returning to the boat at around 1.0 AM . No shopping (and that pisses my wife) that is always finding beautiful and inexpensive things on closed shops (and I am alright with that ) but that means also that most of the time we cannot sail away at 7.00, but only after the opening of the first shops (she wants fresh bread and vegetables) and that happens at 8.00 or 8.30.

And that is with the Bavaria 36 that is a 6K boat, with a 34 steel boat I would not be sailing most of the time and I would not average more than 5K speed on the kind of weather I normally get.

Some would say, don't do 80nm, do less. Well, most of the time I do less cause I cannot sail away at 7.00 (I love to sail away when the sun is low on the horizon and the day is coming) but only at 8.30 or 8.45 (that fresh bread thing is almost an imposition from my family ) and that means that most of the time we are arriving later, at sunset or don't manage to do 80nm but only 70.

Some would still say: do less than 70 miles, but less than that is really going too slow and taking a lot of time for making a way to some far destination.

Me and my wife would like to have a boat capable of a 7/7.5 k average speed. Some would say that is meaningless, that is just 1 or 1,5 K over the Bavaria average speed. Yes it is, but that would mean that we would arrive almost 3 hours sooner and that would mean to find all shops open, to dinner at a more proper time enjoying sunset and to enjoy more 3 hours at a nice place (new town) and to be able to sail away at 7.00 with fresh food and bread. That is important for both of us.

I know that all of us have different sailing programs. Me and Isabel love to cruise and to cruise for us is being on the move and knowing nice new places and for that we want a fast sailing boat. Well besides that I want also a fast sailing boat because it is a lot more fun to sail . Isabel does not care about that. She will be reading.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 05-03-2011 at 06:09 AM.
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  #935  
Old 05-03-2011
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Hi Paulo,
very nice of you to give "a face" to a strive after a certain passage making speed. I also agree with you regarding the big effect a small speed increase will have when making longer distances.

I would like to add to what you say another aspect that I have already touched at earlier in this thread. As a former windsurfer it is in my bones to always try and get the thing I am using for sailing into planing condition. Besides giving a huge boost in shopping time it will give the sailing sensation an even bigger boost.

Once again, last sunday, I had dream conditions with my Dehler 43 CWS here in Sweden. Sunshine and 18-22 knots of wind from 120 degrees thrue. First hour very nice with speeds around 8-9 knots (full main and jib) but then I once again got frustrated by not reaching "the higher" level so to say, and I had again to settle with cruising along at this speed. Ocassionally I got a wave to take me to 10 knot but only for very short periods. Pitty you can not pump a sailboat on to planing speed, as I could with my board.

And even if I am contemplating a switch to an Opium, RM or similar, I think I will be dissapointed in their speed too, as we have discussed before. On a windsurfer we dont carry any gear, on a boat we doo...

Regards,
Anders

Last edited by JAndersB; 05-03-2011 at 08:49 AM.
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  #936  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daviid View Post
Hi folks

Has anyone had anything to do with Kiriacoulis and more specifically their yacht management program? They offer various schemes that allow you purchase a yacht from an approved yacht list. In exchange for the yacht being used in their yacht charter fleet for the duration of the agreement - 3.5 years or 5.5 years - you are given personal use rights that are season dependent but can add up to our required 12 weeks and they cover all expenses including marina charges and maintenance. At the end of period, the yacht is surveyed before being removed from the charter fleet or alternatively a new deal can be negotaited. In addition, you are able to use a similar yacht at any of their bases in the Mediterranean and Caribbean. The scheme has some attraction for those that will only be able to use their yacht for 3 months a year. The downside is that you are restricted in the choice of boat which brings me to my second question.

The yachts that are available in the 35 to 38 foot range are the following - Jeanneau 36i, Beneteau Oceanis 37 (the First range is not available), Bavaria Cruiser 36, Dufour 375 and believe it or not the Dufour 34e. I have asked Kiriacoulis if they would allow for some level of customisation on the yachts to improve their performance including opting for the performance version of the Jeanneau and upgrading the standard specs to suit performance cruising on the others. I have also enquired whether they would consider a Salona 37 or an Elan 350 but I am afraid not.

We would be using the yacht for coastal cruising and would prefer to have a yacht that gets us from A to B fast We have no intention of racing or entering regattas but who knows.

After looking at all the usual performance and safety ratios, my take is as follows:

Jeanneau 36i - definitely would prefer the perfomance package, like the looks, seem to have a solid reputation for build quality and resale value. Still not sure about the weight (load bearing capability) particularly if we want to do the ARC one day and re-locate the yacht to the Caribbean. Separate shower below decks in 2 cabin version a definite plus for liveaboard. We are chartering one in September in Croatia. Could always wait for that Jeanneau 379

Beneteau 37 - seems to be a good compromise between performance, safety, comfort and price. The polar charts actually show that the yacht is quicker than the Jeanneau 36iP! With a LOA at 11.48, beam at 3.92 and weight at approx 6350 kg, there will be more tankage and load bearing capability than the Jeanneau and the Dufour 34e. Loads of comments in the forums about poor quality finishes and most worrying that the hull is not as good as it should be though.Anyone know the STIX rating?

Bavaria Cruiser 36 - seems to have a hull that is really well built and with the right options could be a quick boat BUT I personally don't like the look that much - yachting monthly have just described it as a bloated whale and scored it 77/100 pts. Also the interior doesn't do it for me. I like contemporary but the Ikea look could get to you eventually. At 7,000 kg's the yacht is the heaviest by far which can't help in light winds. Really good value though. Anyone have the polar chart for this yacht?

Dufour 375 - great looker IMO, seems to be very beamy though and the SA/D at 18.5, although not bad, is quite a bit lower than the others. I have really struggled to find the polar charts for this yacht as well as the STIX and AVS ratings but to no avail, so I don't have the full picture yet. Also it is the most expensive - about 7% more than the Beneteau and the Jeanneau. Polar chart, STiX and AVS would be most welcome

Dufour 34e - Again a great looker (IMO), has a racing pedigree with great comfort thrown in but it also the smallest and lightest and therefore not sure about its cruising capability. With a mast height of 15.1m, it is also possibly a little under sheeted - seems to be confirmed by comments in the forums - unless you opt for a taller rig but this requires a visit to your sailmaker which is not going to work in a yacht management program. I am thinking of chartering this boat for a week in October in Croatia for a first hand experience. Again polar chart, STIX and AVS would be most welcome.

You folks out there are way more experienced than I am and I am always keen to hear the views of the experts so any help and comments would be useful.

All the best

David
I have rented with them in Bormes les Mimosas (Bavaria 38 cruiser), and will be renting again in 2 weeks a Bene 37. Happy to let you know what I think of it. I'm chartering a SO 36i for 2 weeks in August in Ajaccio Corsica and can do likewise if you're not in a rush for info. Kiriakoulis are serious, well managed and operating from my limited first hand experience. I haven't had any business or own/lease discussions with them but I have looked at their purchase prices and they are competitive. Their base locations are pretty good if you want varied stomping grounds for charters.
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  #937  
Old 05-03-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
... I also agree with you regarding the big effect a small speed increase will have when making longer distances.
....
Once again, last sunday, I had dream conditions with my Dehler 43 CWS here in Sweden. Sunshine and 18-22 knots of wind from 120 degrees thrue. First hour very nice with speeds around 8-9 knots (full main and jib) but then I once again got frustrated by not reaching "the higher" level so to say, and I had again to settle with cruising along at this speed. Ocassionally I got a wave to take me to 10 knot but only for very short periods. Pitty you can not pump a sailboat on to planing speed, as I could with my board.

And even if I am contemplating a switch to an Opium, RM or similar, I think I will be dissapointed in their speed too, as we have discussed before. On a windsurfer we dont carry any gear, on a boat we doo...
..
Hi Anders,

I don't think you would notice a big difference in speed between your boat and a Rm 1200. We will see about the RM 1260. Probably with a lot of wind you can go one or two K faster downwind, but you would not gain anything upwind. Regarding the Opium I am pretty sure you will notice the difference, on light wind speed and downwind, but you really have to sail one to see what I mean. I can tell you that there are a huge difference in speed between the Opium 39 and the Rm 1200, and not only speed but also in feeling at the wheel.

I have said already that I find your boat (Dehler 43CWS) one of the best from the 90's. Let me compare it with the new Dehler 41. They have some very close measures even if one is a 41 and the other a 43.

Of course the hull is very different with the new Dehler with a beam much more brought aft and a larger transom. The hull is also a semi-planning hull, much more than the one from the 43 and the boat is lighter, much lighter in the performance version that I prefer : less 1200 kg, the same sail area, a more modern and planning hull about the same beam and the same LWL will make the new 41 Dehler performance boat much faster and a boat that will sail a lot better with light winds and much better in downwind speed.

Regarding what they call the cruising version that as I have said is a remarkably less expensive boat but a boat with lower specifications everywhere, the sail area is the same (unless they have a racing rig that is not yet specified for the performance version) the hull is also the same even if cored with balsa instead of airex but the weight is very different: 8280Kg, more 800 kg than the performance version but less 420kg than on the older Dehler 43 CWS.

The performance between the two Dehler versions will be really big but even the "cruiser" one will be significantly faster than the 43 CWS, not only because it has less weight for the same sail but because it has a more modern hull. The difference will be also more noticed in light wind and in downwind sailing with lot's of wind.

Anders, why not one of these new babies, I mean the performance version? I bet that you would notice the diference

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 05-03-2011 at 05:32 PM.
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  #938  
Old 05-03-2011
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Paulo, I take your point and if I was doing a succession of 80nm hops I'd also think the extra couple of knots would be important.

Reality is however that I'm a dawdler, a slowpoke, someone who enjoys getting to an anchorage and hanging around for a few days.

I think that is why we (that is all of us , not you and me) have these long term discussions on the subject of the "perfect" cruising boat. Need to do 80nm every day for ten days ? Hell yeah, I'd want the fastest possible ride as well. Do a lot of day sailing ? Give me speed. I wanna boogie.

Lets face it, I spend far more time slouching about , reading, listening to music, eating and drinking than I do actually sailing. Now I don't want a complete slug and yes I admit that our dear old Raven does not move in under 5knots of wind and really needs plus ten to get along little doggy (dogey?) but if I can passage make on the basis of 5knts average, reality is I am content.

To have sailed a true performance yacht up to Port Stephens in those conditions would have been seriously exhilarating with a crew of four or more. For a crew of two old farts like us it would have been exhausting. Were we doing the same up north near the Whitsundays then the fast boat would have been a gem not doubt, in the seas we were in not so much.

Cheers

A
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Last edited by tdw; 05-03-2011 at 06:38 PM.
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  #939  
Old 05-04-2011
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Hi Paulo,
the main reason I do not want to go that road is that I have partially been there already and found a big drawback. Sailing single handed and often with a lot of sail area up for the thrill, modern fat aft hull sections demads twin rudders for control (or constant adjustment of main sail track, which is OK with good crew), and no manufacturer provides that in the boat type you refer to. Only Benetau has started now with the Sense, but as said before they are rather heavy.

Regards,
Anders
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Old 05-04-2011
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Hello dear friends,
First of all pls accept my apologies for my poor english.
Well, I have read with pleasure the articles of this thread. We live aboard our blue water cruiser boat for 9 years and now it is time to buy a new different type of boat. We are very much interested in the new fast cruiser boats below 40 feet, we appreciate the concept and the main features. We need a strong and safe boat which is also suitable to live aboard. I know a 40 feet could be the best solution but our purchase budget is limited and also we need to keep low the expenses.
The Azuree 33 seems to be very attractive (I have read almost all your articles in the thread). In the same cat and range price I have found the Elan 350, which is pretty too. In a different category (cheaper also) there is the Oceanis 34, but I have some doubts about her general building quality and safety. Same feeling for the bigger sister Oceanis 37, which anyway could represent a good compromise quality-living space/price. But the first two boats are much more attractive. An other boat to investigate could be the RM 1050, but I don't know to much about this model. I don't like the galley and the front cabin. I loved the 1200 but out of range.
I would appreciate your comments about what I said and my needs. Any type of support will be more than welcome.
Yus
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