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  #941  
Old 05-04-2011
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Originally Posted by yus View Post
Hello dear friends,
First of all pls accept my apologies for my poor english.
Well, I have read with pleasure the articles of this thread. We live aboard our blue water cruiser boat for 9 years and now it is time to buy a new different type of boat. We are very much interested in the new fast cruiser boats below 40 feet, we appreciate the concept and the main features. We need a strong and safe boat which is also suitable to live aboard. I know a 40 feet could be the best solution but our purchase budget is limited and also we need to keep low the expenses.
The Azuree 33 seems to be very attractive (I have read almost all your articles in the thread). In the same cat and range price I have found the Elan 350, which is pretty too. In a different category (cheaper also) there is the Oceanis 34, but I have some doubts about her general building quality and safety. Same feeling for the bigger sister Oceanis 37, which anyway could represent a good compromise quality-living space/price. But the first two boats are much more attractive. An other boat to investigate could be the RM 1050, but I don't know to much about this model. I don't like the galley and the front cabin. I loved the 1200 but out of range.
I would appreciate your comments about what I said and my needs. Any type of support will be more than welcome.
Yus
Hello Yus,

Welcome to Sailnet and particularly to this thread

It would help to know the boat you are living in. You are used to that space and makes no sense in changing to a boat with less space.

Yes, the Azuree 33 and the Elan 350 are great boats and if I lived alone I would not have problems in living permanently on one but if I lived with someone I would prefer the Oceanis 37. I like a lot more the Elan 350 in what regards sailing but the Oceanis 37 has really a lot more interior space and a more agreeable one. For living aboard tankage is also important and again the Oceanis 37 is a lot better in what regards that. Another boat you should consider is the new Jeanneau 379. It seems interesting to me and should no be much more expensive than the Oceanis 37.

NEW MODEL ANNOUNCEMENT - JEANNEAU SUN ODYSSEY 379 - Jeanneau News from Sea Ventures (UK) Ltd

I agree that by far the boat more suited for you would be the RM 1200. He is going out of production and that means that there will be some interesting boats in the market at a reasonable price even if the demand is very big on the used market for that boat. Maybe you can find a 2003 boat (that's when the model started) for 150 000 Ä (that seems to be your budget) and probably that would be the better option, or at least the one I would try if I was choosing a boat for living aboard and have 150 000Ä.

Regards

Paulo
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  #942  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
boats in the market at a reasonable price even if the demand is very big on the used market for that boat. Maybe you can find a 2003 boat (that's when the model started) for 150 000 Ä (that seems to be your budget)
Hi Paulo!
thinking about the future sales price of a used boat is always an interesting issue for me. I won't keep it indefinitely...
Do you think the loss in value of an RM is especially low? How is this in comparison with a Pogo, an Opium, First or other boats? What do you think?
Ulf
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  #943  
Old 05-04-2011
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Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
Hi Paulo,
the main reason I do not want to go that road is that I have partially been there already and found a big drawback. Sailing single handed and often with a lot of sail area up for the thrill, modern fat aft hull sections demads twin rudders for control (or constant adjustment of main sail track, which is OK with good crew), and no manufacturer provides that in the boat type you refer to. Only Benetau has started now with the Sense, but as said before they are rather heavy.

Regards,
Anders
Hi Anders,

The Sense is not only heavy is also fat it is not designed to plane and is not very bright upwind (worse than the Oceanis). It is a boat that is interesting but I don't think it is what you are looking after.

I agree with what you say but you are exaggerating a bit and it also depends a lot on the boat. Twin rudders give better downwind control but a well designed hull is also part of the equation. I remember reading a post of a luffe 43 owner saying that he had sailed his boat (with all the family) inside doing 16/17k with fingertip control:

- LUFFE YACHTS - News

Yes it will be slightly better with two rudders but a modern hull with the draft brought back is very stable downwind. The other problem with a single rudder is to lost control sooner at the limit and broach the boat more easily . But the new Dehler have (like your boat) a high ballast/displacement ratio and has a much deeper ruder. I don't think you will have any problems controlling this boat with a short crew or solo (of course the limits will not be the same but I believe you can sail very fast solo on this boat).

I also believe it will be harder to broach than your boat (deeper rudder about the same RM, a more modern hull) and I believe your boat does not broach easily. A Opium 39 a 1200 RM or a Pogo have a much bigger need regarding two rudders because they are more beamy boats. The Dehler 41, like the First 40 or the Salona 41 are much narrower boats and that has nothing to do with the broad stern. Broad sterns have to do with beam brought aft, even on a narrow boat.

For me the bigger problems with these new generation "classic" fast sailboats (First, Dehler, Salona) has to do with the draft of the rudder. I would not have a 2.00m draft boat with one of those rudders. The keel and the rudder would be at almost the same level and that seems imprudent to me.

Take a look at the rudder on the 43CWS on a 2.0 m draft boat: way up regarding the keel.




Now take a look at this drawing with the Dehler showing the 2.40 and 2.20 (standard) keels. They have a short draft keel with 2.00 with the same ruder. Can you imagine it? That's the same with the First and the Salona: on the 1.98m keel version the rudder and the keel are practically level. Weird looking
in what concerns me, I mean the keel and rudder at the same level


Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 05-04-2011 at 10:09 AM.
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  #944  
Old 05-04-2011
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Hi Paulo,
as I said I have been there and tried that with previous models from my Dehler. Some of them had as deep rudders as keel (almost 2 m) but it did not help. The Dehler 43 CWS rudder is also rather deep and big, but as you pointed out not to that extent, but mainly due to big ballast ratio and especially due to narrower aft section, is almost impossible to get it to round up.

We discussed this before Paulo and it is always good to give things a second thought . As I said before, boats with low ballast ratio and a lot of form stability can be very nice and fast in the right conditions (as was even my Beneteau Oceanis 40) but conditions are very seldom so stable as when these boats excel, or you need a very active crew on the sheets (and rail).

I agree, there are shades of heat also in hell , but basically, twin rudders and planing hulls is what I am looking for.

Regards,
Anders
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
Hi Paulo,
as I said I have been there and tried that with previous models from my Dehler. Some of them had as deep rudders as keel (almost 2 m) but it did not help. The Dehler 43 CWS rudder is also rather deep and big, but as you pointed out not to that extent, but mainly due to big ballast ratio and especially due to narrower aft section, is almost impossible to get it to round up.
....
I agree, there are shades of heat also in hell , but basically, twin rudders and planing hulls is what I am looking for.

Regards,
Anders
Anders, I would be the last to dispute that preference because it suits me well but I insist that the shape of the transom and the beam brought back has a lot to do with downwind increased stability even if two rudders can be a plus.

What I was trying to say is that in what regards hull design, shape of the hull, beam brought aft and large transom this is the first Dehler with this hull configuration. I don't think that any experience with other Dehlers is relevant in what regards downwind sailing.

If you go to the site and see the different hull shapes from the other Dehler you are going to understand what I mean.

This boat belongs in that regard to a new generation. More are coming, the Xp 38, the Max 11 and I bet it is going to be a standard from now on for this type of boat.

Regards

Paulo
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  #946  
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Paulo, I take your point and if I was doing a succession of 80nm hops I'd also think the extra couple of knots would be important.

Reality is however that I'm a dawdler, a slowpoke, someone who enjoys getting to an anchorage and hanging around for a few days.

I think that is why we (that is all of us , not you and me) have these long term discussions on the subject of the "perfect" cruising boat. Need to do 80nm every day for ten days ? Hell yeah, I'd want the fastest possible ride as well. Do a lot of day sailing ? Give me speed. I wanna boogie.

Lets face it, I spend far more time slouching about , reading, listening to music, eating and drinking than I do actually sailing. Now I don't want a complete slug and yes I admit that our dear old Raven does not move in under 5knots of wind and really needs plus ten to get along little doggy (dogey?) but if I can passage make on the basis of 5knts average, reality is I am content.

To have sailed a true performance yacht up to Port Stephens in those conditions would have been seriously exhilarating with a crew of four or more. For a crew of two old farts like us it would have been exhausting. Were we doing the same up north near the Whitsundays then the fast boat would have been a gem not doubt, in the seas we were in not so much.

Cheers

A
Hey Andrews,

I agree with everything you said except with the last part. On this thread you find lots of different boats for lots of sailors with different needs and tastes. I like the differences and the different types of boats. If I could I would have several and one of them with be a classic one, a fast boat from the 30's.

Regarding this:

To have sailed a true performance yacht up to Port Stephens in those conditions would have been seriously exhilarating with a crew of four or more. For a crew of two old farts like us it would have been exhausting.

I don't think you are right. See, a performance boat has a huge stability that is needed to carry a lot of sail. If you push the boat and go really fast yes it could be a fun but sportive and tiring ride. But reef those sails go at less 1 or 1.5K (and even so faster than other no performance boats) and that superior stability (RM) will give you a no thrills fast and efficient motion with plenty of directional stability and little heel.

As an old Dragonfly solo cruiser (more than 70 year's old) said to a friend of mine when he asked him if that fast trimaran was not too much for him: "Well, I can go slower, but you can't go faster"

Regards

Paulo
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  #947  
Old 05-04-2011
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May be this illustrates what Paulo and Anders mean with easy sailing on light boats with lots of stability:

Dailymotion - Petit surf √* 20 nds - une vid√©o Sports & Extreme

Nobody on the rail, no stress, just a concentrated driver and one crew winching up to the sharpening apparent.

Enjoy!

Eric
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  #948  
Old 05-04-2011
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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Hello Yus,

Welcome to Sailnet and particularly to this thread

It would help to know the boat you are living in. You are used to that space and makes no sense in changing to a boat with less space.



Paulo
Hello Paulo,

Thanks for you reply.
The boat we own at the moment is a Baba 35 (Perry design). It is very confortable for us and very safe, but we took decision to change type of boat and have two cabins to give a better accomodation to some friends. I think the new concept of boat, which is represented by the Azuree 33, Should be more roomy inside compare to my Baba. The Azuree uses the full lenght and it is also more width. I think we should appreciate the difference in terms of space. What do you think about?
The Elan 350 is nice too but I prefer the Azuree, I think is more roomy inside.

Regards, yus.
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Originally Posted by yus View Post
Hello Paulo,

Thanks for you reply.
The boat we own at the moment is a Baba 35 (Perry design). It is very confortable for us and very safe, but we took decision to change type of boat and have two cabins to give a better accomodation to some friends. I think the new concept of boat, which is represented by the Azuree 33, Should be more roomy inside compare to my Baba. The Azuree uses the full lenght and it is also more width. I think we should appreciate the difference in terms of space. What do you think about?
The Elan 350 is nice too but I prefer the Azuree, I think is more roomy inside.

Regards, yus.
Hei Yus, I had a look at the Baba 35 and it is a nice boat with a cozy interior, but certainly a slow one

Baba 35 Review : Bluewaterboats.org

Regarding the Azuree 33, it is very unusual to me to say that I think the slower boat is better but it is what I think in your case. I don't think the problem would be the interior space but the loading capacity. The Baba has a big load capacity. It can carry 75 gallons of fuel and 100 of water. Well on the Azuree 33 the fuel tank dimension is not very important because it is a very good sailing boat that can sail with very weak winds, but the water is indispensable for having the autonomy for staying some days atanchor. The Azuree only has a water tankage of 160L and that's really not enough for living aboard. the Elan 350 has and identical problem. I think that this will be the biggest problem, not the interior space.

I really think that the Oceanis 37 (346 L of water) or the new Jeanneau 379 (336L of water) are a more realistic option.

Anyway these would be incomparably faster than the Baba and the Jeanneau will have a performance version that will be even faster (and faster than the Azuree 33). These boats will also have a much bigger freezer and a lot more storage space and probably can carry almost the same load of the old Baba 35.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 05-04-2011 at 07:06 PM.
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The Baba has a big load capacity. It can carry 75 gallons of fuel and 100 of water. Well on the Azuree 33 the fuel tank dimension is not very important because it is a very good sailing boat that can sail with very weak winds, but the water is indispensable for having the autonomy for staying some days atanchor. The Azuree only has a water tankage of 160L and that's really not enough for living aboard. the Elan 350 has and identical problem. I think that this will be the biggest problem, not the interior space.
I think for living aboard a good solution for this issue which is actually a weight-issue is a watermaker. Use the water tank as buffer and for safety but use the watermaker for the continuous demand. However the energy for this needs to come from somewhere, e.g. from the watt-and-sea generator. So its going to be expensive...
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