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  #11  
Old 03-01-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olson34 View Post
Brian makes some good points. Especially about defining budget, both up front and total within the next two years of ownership. I was also a bit curious as to how such an apples to oranges to bananas comparison arose without some budget numbers.
BTW, the definitive web site for a C&C Landfall 38 is at C&C Landfall 38 - Stella Blue

One quibble on "racing." This is one of the most mis-used words in the world for attempting to predjudice buyers for or against any boat. Entering a sailboat race has nothing to do with intrinsic speed potential or hull quality of your boat.
Try, really try, to remember that in order to be a real racing sailboat, the only requirement is that the skipper enter a race and show up on the starting line.

Heck, I've met the owner of the Westsail 32 that beat a big bunch of go-fast high-dollar boats in the Pacific Cup. No "racing" magic involved -- he is an excellent sailor, knows his boat very well, and prepared it very well. That's how handicap racing works, when it works.

If the handicap is close to fair, you can equally win (or not!) in a J-34, a Catalina 34, or a C&C 34. I have always found that when I lose, it is because the "nut on the helm" needs adjusting!
It is seldom the fault of the boat I drive, especially my Olson.

Best,
L
A good racer always blames his loss on the crew first, then the boat!!! What's the matter with you!?? Havn't you ever raced!?? HEHE!

Brian
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  #12  
Old 03-01-2010
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Racing, provided it is not just the weekly beer can races, can be very hard on a boat. A major race, even a regional one, like the Mackinac, is a grueling event and difficult on both the crew and boat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by olson34 View Post
One quibble on "racing." This is one of the most mis-used words in the world for attempting to predjudice buyers for or against any boat. Entering a sailboat race has nothing to do with intrinsic speed potential or hull quality of your boat.
Try, really try, to remember that in order to be a real racing sailboat, the only requirement is that the skipper enter a race and show up on the starting line.

Heck, I've met the owner of the Westsail 32 that beat a big bunch of go-fast high-dollar boats in the Pacific Cup. No "racing" magic involved -- he is an excellent sailor, knows his boat very well, and prepared it very well. That's how handicap racing works, when it works.

If the handicap is close to fair, you can equally win (or not!) in a J-34, a Catalina 34, or a C&C 34. I have always found that when I lose, it is because the "nut on the helm" needs adjusting!
It is seldom the fault of the boat I drive, especially my Olson.

Best,
L
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—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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  #13  
Old 03-01-2010
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Apples and Oranges

CD is much too kind. To clarify, I do not run a NW C34 organization. I was however, the Chief Measurer for the Catalina 34 International Owners Association about five years ago. I do have experience in racing one design (national Champion in 2002), YRA, “club” racing as well as single and double handed racing. I’ve also been first place in the OYRA, 2nd in the Pacific Cup and 3rd in the Rolex Big Boat Series on OPBs (other people’s boats).

Just by coincidence, I had the opportunity to crawl all over a C&C 40 last week at the local brokers. Nice boat, but frac rig, runners, and halyards at the mast, it was really set up for racing and not very practical for me.

The C34 is big. If it was built by Beneteau, it would be marketed as a 35 footer. IMHO, they are well designed and built, they sail well in heavy winds and seas and they are very comfortable for couples cruising. They enjoy a fantastic and knowledgeable owners association and I encourage you to visit the website at C34ia.org. You may even find the boat you are looking at in our database. They have been cruised to Mexico, Hawaii, crossed both the Atlantic and Pacific and are being cruised in the Carib, Alaska and Australia.

The C34 is a cruiser. Racing here in SF Bay is serious business. I have raced against Olympic medalists, Americas Cup crews and other assorted sailing royalties. I don’t know what your local completion level is like, but I have had to go against a Synergy 1000 in my club’s beer can series! When I go up against boats of similar genera like the Beneteau’s, Cal’s, Ericson’s and like, I usually prevail. I don’t do so well against the J’s, Express’ and the like. In YRA, we’re a mid fleet boat, single and double handing, a bit better. If we optimized the boat for racing, we’d finish higher. I also don’t push the boat like I did in my one design days as we are planning on shoving off to Mexico in a couple of years and I don’t want a beat up boat (plus, cruising gear is heavy!)

Performance wise, we need 2-4 kts to ghost along. With the 130, we are at hull speed in the mid teens. Reefed at 20, 110 headsail in the high 20’s Reef 2 in the low 30’s (all true wind speeds in knots).

All cruising boats tend to have a harder time sailing to their rating than purpose designed racers. First, they are heavier displacement. Secondly, builders “cheat” on the displacement measurement by weighing the first article during the build (and not after it’s completed), often without some of the equipment installed. Race boat builders work harder to keep their production boats down to their designed weight. Don’t believe me? Compare your sling weight to your designed weight sometime (empty tanks).

You are looking at two boats that are pretty far apart on the continuum. Considering their ages, I’d pay special attention to condition. I wouldn’t be surprised if you will have to replace a fair amount of the blocks and running rigging on the retired racer. In the end follow your heart. I think that the C34 would make a fine boat for you but, boat buying is an emotional experience and if the retired racer makes your heart flutter, then go for it.

Last edited by GeorgeB; 03-02-2010 at 12:11 PM.
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  #14  
Old 03-02-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeB View Post
Apples and Oranges

CD is much too kind. To clarify, I do not run a NW C34 organization. I was however, the Chief Measurer for the Catalina 34 International Owners Association about five years ago. I do have experience in racing one design (national Champion in 2002), YRA, “club” racing as well as single and double handed racing. I’ve also been first place in the OYRA, 2nd in the Pacific Cup and 3rd in the Rolex Big Boat Series on OPBs (other people’s boats).

Just by coincidence, I had the opportunity to crawl all over a C&C 40 last week at the local brokers. Nice boat, but frac rig, runners, and halyards at the mast, it was really set up for racing and not very practical for me.

The C34 is big. If it was built by Beneteau, it would be marketed as a 36 footer. IMHO, they are well designed and built, they sail well in heavy winds and seas and they are very comfortable for couples cruising. They enjoy a fantastic and knowledgeable owners association and I encourage you to visit the website at C34ia.org. You may even find the boat you are looking at in our database. They have been raced to Hawaii, crossed both the Atlantic and Pacific and are being cruised in the Carib, Mexico, Alaska and Australia.

The C34 is a cruiser. Racing here in SF Bay is serious business. I have raced against Olympic medalists, Americas Cup crews and other assorted sailing royalties. I don’t know what your local completion level is like, but I have had to go against a Synergy 1000 in my club’s beer can series! When I go up against boats of similar genera like the Beneteau’s, Cal’s, Ericson’s and like, I usually prevail. I don’t do so well against the J’s, Express’ and the like. In YRA, we’re a mid fleet boat, single and double handing, a bit better. If we optimized the boat for racing, we’d finish higher. I also don’t push the boat like I did in my one design days as we are planning on shoving off to Mexico in a couple of years and I don’t want a beat up boat (plus, cruising gear is heavy!)

Performance wise, we need 2-4 kts to ghost along. With the 130, we are at hull speed in the mid teens. Reefed at 20, 110 headsail in the high 20’s Reef 2 in the low 30’s (all true wind speeds in knots).

All cruising boats tend to have a harder time sailing to their rating than purpose designed racers. First, they are heavier displacement. Secondly, builders “cheat” on the displacement measurement by weighing the first article during the build (and not after it’s completed), often without some of the equipment installed. Race boat builders work harder to keep their production boats down to their designed weight. Don’t believe me? Compare your sling weight to your designed weight sometime (empty tanks).

You are looking at two boats that are pretty far apart on the continuum. Considering their ages, I’d pay special attention to condition. I wouldn’t be surprised if you will have to replace a fair amount of the blocks and running rigging on the retired racer. In the end follow your heart. I think that the C34 would make a fine boat for you but, boat buying is an emotional experience and if the retired racer makes your heart flutter, then go for it.
So George (and I think this is somewhat relative to this thread) what is your cruising boat going to be? You are obviously shopping. If you enjoy performance, go take a peek at the 400 or 445 (depending on the coin you want to drop). Sailed a 400 yet?

Brian
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  #15  
Old 03-02-2010
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I have no interest in racing. I do want to have fun ride when I'm out there though. As I said in the OP, mostly day sailing (weekly) with probably quarterly coastal cruising, and every few years heading down into the carribean for a bit. Coupled with living aboard and single-handing (at least on day sails).

My budget is $60k initial and about $10-15k over the next few years.

I came to compare these three by looking at everything I could find in my price range in this area. I could ask for opinions on the differences between a 34' Beneteau and a 34' Hunter, but what fun would that be? So I ended up with dock condo/party boat, a liveable racer, and something in between. I'm quite confident that any of the 3 (2 now) will fill the bill adequately, yet uniquely. Guess I was really wanting to hear about any intricate details or issues with the three boats I named. Especially the C&C since they seem to be fairly rare in my area. The only thing I've really been able to find is that the leaking portlights is very common in these models.

FWIW the C&C was raced far beyond beercan races on Wednesday night based on the placards affixed to the nav station. It also definitely needs the running rigging replaced if nothing else.
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  #16  
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Oh, and of course there's the plan to sail into the sunset permantently in about 20 years, but that in all likelyhood will not be on whatever boat I buy now.
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Oh, and to address cruisingdad, I looked at several Catalina 36's as well, but I like the 34' better.
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  #18  
Old 03-02-2010
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Originally Posted by jwreck View Post
I have no interest in racing. I do want to have fun ride when I'm out there though. As I said in the OP, mostly day sailing (weekly) with probably quarterly coastal cruising, and every few years heading down into the carribean for a bit. Coupled with living aboard and single-handing (at least on day sails).

My budget is $60k initial and about $10-15k over the next few years.

I came to compare these three by looking at everything I could find in my price range in this area. I could ask for opinions on the differences between a 34' Beneteau and a 34' Hunter, but what fun would that be? So I ended up with dock condo/party boat, a liveable racer, and something in between. I'm quite confident that any of the 3 (2 now) will fill the bill adequately, yet uniquely. Guess I was really wanting to hear about any intricate details or issues with the three boats I named. Especially the C&C since they seem to be fairly rare in my area. The only thing I've really been able to find is that the leaking portlights is very common in these models.

FWIW the C&C was raced far beyond beercan races on Wednesday night based on the placards affixed to the nav station. It also definitely needs the running rigging replaced if nothing else.
THe 34 is a great live aboard boat, but might not be my first choice of boat to take down the thorny path. I personally would opt for a larger Catalina/production boat or a heavier built boat.

Your issue will be tankage and storage. Although, being a solo, the storage might be ok, but you are going to have to modifiy with a lot of tankage - esp diesel and probably a watermaker.

The 380 is a better choice, but may be out of your price range. I do know 36's have made it down there and people live on them. I understand that there is not a lot of 'space' difference between teh 34 and 36.... but I am unaware of any 34's i nthe carrib.

George? You know of any? What are your thoughts about taking that boat down the thorny path?

Brian
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  #19  
Old 03-02-2010
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Oh, and to address cruisingdad, I looked at several Catalina 36's as well, but I like the 34' better.
No problem.

I lieved on and cruised a 380. Good boat and heavy built. Good liveaboard.

If I were in your shoes, I would look into a Tayana 37 - since liveaboard and distance cruising is in your plans. Not sure you can pick one up for 60, but I would see what was available. My only concern about anything you have said is heading to the carribean on the 34. I am just giving you my opinion. Others might be fine with it.

Brian
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  #20  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
THe 34 is a great live aboard boat, but might not be my first choice of boat to take down the thorny path. I personally would opt for a larger Catalina/production boat or a heavier built boat.

Your issue will be tankage and storage. Although, being a solo, the storage might be ok, but you are going to have to modifiy with a lot of tankage - esp diesel and probably a watermaker.

The 380 is a better choice, but may be out of your price range. I do know 36's have made it down there and people live on them. I understand that there is not a lot of 'space' difference between teh 34 and 36.... but I am unaware of any 34's i nthe carrib.

George? You know of any? What are your thoughts about taking that boat down the thorny path?

Brian
I looked at a 380 for fun. Nice, but too pricey for me.
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