Please Advise on This Hardin 45' cutter ketch - Page 2 - SailNet Community
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post #11 of 49 Old 03-11-2010
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I've wondered the same thing Winder - the Cheoy Lees, Ta Chiaos, etc. I see a lot of Cheoy Lee Pedricks one the market - but the range all over the place in terms of reviews.

Jeff, you seriously should do some review articles on various production boats within a decade run. There are always a lot of questions from people buying boats from the '70's, 80's, 90's, etc. It would be cool to have a good overview article.
I'd love to see a detailed review rather than a general condemnation of a range of boats because of where and when some boats where built.

My father in law loves his Tayana. Where was that built?

People hate Hunters because they aren't blue water capable or look like clorox bottles.

I tried to walk the seriously curved and sloped deck of a Benetau 38-39 or so the other day and was lost when looking for handholds in the main cabin. Let's not talk about the lack of handholds in the cabin.

Owned a Moto-Guzzi, which has been going out of business for 75 years.

Owned a BMW airhead, which lots of japanese and harley riders mock.

Owned wooden bows, which the compound guys mock (won more than a few bets when the lights were turned down in the range).

It really matters on what works for you.
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post #12 of 49 Old 03-11-2010
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Just curious, but where did you see someone issuing a general condemnation of a range of boats? Jeff_H certainly didn't do so... and either did Smacky AFAICT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackjenner View Post
I'd love to see a detailed review rather than a general condemnation of a range of boats because of where and when some boats where built.

My father in law loves his Tayana. Where was that built?

People hate Hunters because they aren't blue water capable or look like clorox bottles.

I tried to walk the seriously curved and sloped deck of a Benetau 38-39 or so the other day and was lost when looking for handholds in the main cabin. Let's not talk about the lack of handholds in the cabin.

Owned a Moto-Guzzi, which has been going out of business for 75 years.

Owned a BMW airhead, which lots of japanese and harley riders mock.

Owned wooden bows, which the compound guys mock (won more than a few bets when the lights were turned down in the range).

It really matters on what works for you.

Sailingdog

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post #13 of 49 Old 03-12-2010
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Just curious, but where did you see someone issuing a general condemnation of a range of boats? Jeff_H certainly didn't do so... and either did Smacky AFAICT.
"To some extent these are the boats that gave Taiwan its bad reputation."


Sure, the "to some extent" is a qualifier, but I have seen this exact same language around motorcycles, guns, bicycles, cars, over the years.

That is what I was talking about.

Not so broad a brush please.
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post #14 of 49 Old 03-18-2010
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I agree with your take Black - that's why I asked the question about a more detailed review of the Taiwanese brands. Which ones are generally worth looking at and which ones aren't?

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post #15 of 49 Old 03-18-2010
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I think that's a great way to look at it. Throughout my life experience I have heard less than complimentary opinions applied to broad numbers of Beechcraft Bonanzas, Harleys, Japanese bikes, Glock handguns, automobiles ... I could go on. These stereotyping opinions (using one example and extrapolating to all examples of the thing) aren't very useful except in demonstrating the mindset of the various speakers.

The other side of it is, many broad opinions like these are based on some concrete and true example. For example, when Harley Davidson was owned by AMF (the basketball company) quality control went down the tubes. The shovelhead engines were awful in terms of oil retention and reliability. When the EVO engine came out in 88, people were still using the same language to trash Harley (I'm not a Harley fan by the way) even though the new engines were a great improvement; good even.

Now, I've been riding motorcycles for 35 years. I've owned as many as seven running bikes at one time. I've worked in the industry, written for magazines and had photography published around them. I've owned over 25 models and ridden about a half a million miles on them. All that life experience doesn't matter one bit if I offer emotional and broad based negative opinions without any facts to back them up.

No matter the credentials of the speaker, when I hear broad brushed opinions I don't take them too seriously, I ask for specifics from the people who are speaking broadly. This helps me determine if their opinions are based on current or correct facts or outdated or emotional based information.

So, boats built in Taiwan; I'm sure there were problems. I have no doubt about that. However, I have seen three different examples of Taiwanese built boats that were solid, well made and surveyed well. I do not believe that all, or even most, of the boats of Taiwanese boats are bad, no more than I believe all Harleys or BMWs are bad, based on their companies particular failures. I have also spoken to a shipwright who, in the same breath, did speak of being careful of some Taiwan boats, yet praised a particular Hardin as solid, extremely wall made, rigged well and a good boat.

So, I don't know the whole story. I'm learning as much as I can about various boat manufacturers and model examples. What I do know about is human behavior, how it shapes opinions, and how personal motivations and biases can often be presented as opinions.

Like you, I'm interested in detailed reviews, based on facts and data.

Anything else is opinion, and subject to skepticism on my part.

"There's nothing . . . absolutely nothing . . . half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats." -- Kenneth Grahame, The Wind in the Willows (River Rat to Mole)

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post #16 of 49 Old 03-18-2010
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So lets be more specific, in the 1980's my mother and stepfather owned company that built boats in Taiwan. They were heavily involved in the design, development and construction of these boats. It meant being over there for long periods of time. Since they were not aligned with any specific yard, they would be in and out of the various yards, examining the quality of the boats being built since they were potentially contracting with these yards to build their boats. In those days the boat builders were a close knit bunch who met for dinner nearly nightly and would talk pretty openly about what they were up to, expecially since they used many of the same suppliers and tradesmen.

Because of my yacht design background, I was often involved in detailed conversations about related topics including build quality issues and the like. In a general sense, I came to understand the core issues with many of the boats that came out of Taiwan in terms of materials and methods of construction and the difficulty in getting them to adhere to even basic standards of construction in serious areas that potentially impacted some of the most basic structural, rigging and electrical and plumbing standards.

Some of this was understandable for an island republic where materials needed to imported, but some was just plain crazy. I cringed at stories like that of one yard in which an owner had paid to ship marine grade plywood to the yard for use in the subdecks, monel and stainless steel fastenings, properly rated hoses, and tinned wire in a range of sizes. The boat was being produced on a time and material contract under direct owner supervision and yet every time the owner turned his back for a day or two, non-marine ply was used in the deck, junk hoses suddenly appeared, and non-tinned wire was used for the electrical. The owner assumed they were trying to sell off "the good stuff" and make more money. But more to the point, the yard insisted none of this stuff was really necessary. But to me what makes this story significant as this story was being told, most of the yard owners sitting at that table agreed this stuff was unnecessary.

If I recall correctly, Hardin's were built under direct supervision, and so some of the really slip-shod stuff that I have seen probably was not done on these boats, and like the boat that Winn purchased, if someone went through one and really upgraded everything, you could end up with a half-way decent built boat.

That said, having sailed on these types of boats in a range of conditions, I find their motion uncomfortable, and their high drag hull forms, low stability to drag, and rig proportions really lousey at either end of the wind range. I understand that is my opinion and it represents my own personal bias toward better sailing vessels, betetr engineering, and my preference for a less rolly motion at the price of a slightly quicker motion.

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post #17 of 49 Old 03-18-2010
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Thanks for that answer, Jeff.

"There's nothing . . . absolutely nothing . . . half so much worth doing as simply messing around in boats." -- Kenneth Grahame, The Wind in the Willows (River Rat to Mole)

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post #18 of 49 Old 03-18-2010
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Thanks Jeff. One other question...

Of the Taiwanese brands of that era, are there boats of the era that were typically better than the others (e.g. - Cheoy Lees, etc.)? I guess that's the distinction I'm looking for.

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post #19 of 49 Old 03-18-2010
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And yet another....I hope you don't mind.

Jeff, I was wondering. Based on your experience, if you had a boat budget of 100-130K and were looking for:

1) liveaboard (comfort and room) for two people. Aft cabin is really tempting here.
2) start with cruising the Puget Sound and inside passage to Alaska.
3) Single or dual handing
4) eventually blue water (if it's possible for the boat)

What classes or makes of boats would you consider?

That is the question I am currently trying to answer.

Thanks for your earlier response. It will inform my decisions quite a bit.

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post #20 of 49 Old 03-18-2010
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black, check out this thread:

The Salt's Corner Table

There are several posts by Jeff and others talking about these comparisons. I can't remember one specific to Taiwanese boats - so I'm interested in this conversation. I'll add it to the "Salt's Thread" as well. That thread is just a great place to put together the best posts so you don't have to dig forever for the info and so these guys don't have to answer questions repeatedly.

There was also a great discussion in the "Production Boats and the Limits" thread where these guys helped define the bluewater versus coastal cruiser issue a bit.

Happy hunting.

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