Tayana 37 performance

[wannabe4]

Ladies and gentlemen, I once again call on the collective wisdom of this forum.

I am interested in a discussion of the performance of a full keeled boat with forefoot cutaway and a cutter rig. Specifically, how well upwind does a Tayana 37 perform? Besides the fact that it has a wide shroud why does the full keel inhibit upwind pointing ability?


For those of you with experience sailing on a 1980's era Tayana 37 what do you think of its upwind performance? Speed?

Thanks in advance to all who respond!!

[poopdeckpappy]

As a 37 owner, I don't think in terms of performance and speed, does it sail to windward?? yes, it fetches ( is that a word ? )pretty good and is very comfortable while doing so, is it a fast boat ??? hell no, that's not what it was designed for.

I wuv me boat, it's strong like ox



Oh, google Tanaya Owners Group, good stuff there for your question

[Paul_L]

If you want to compare performance between boats, using the PHRF time for each boat is reasonable first cut. Tayana 37 is in the 170's range.

Paul L

[svsirius]

So to give that perspective my ex Frers 36 a racer cruiser rated 90. That means for every mile sailed I owed the Tayana 37 80 seconds or so... or it was about half as fast.

My current 47 has about the same rating 96 as the Frers did even though it's 3x as heavy but does have a much longer waterline. The difference is the Frers could accelerate out of tacks and gibes quickly the Moody not so, however in rougher condition where the Frers would be bouncing around and not so much fun, it's a great sailing day on the Moody.

[slap]

Originally Posted by svsirius

So to give that perspective my ex Frers 36 a racer cruiser rated 90. That means for every mile sailed I owed the Tayana 37 80 seconds or so... or it was about half as fast.

If you assume a boatspeed of 6 knots, you are traveling 1 nautical mile every 10 minutes. If it takes another boat 10 minutes + 80 seconds, they are traveling at around 5.3 knots.

[svsirius]

Originally Posted by slap

If you assume a boat speed of 6 knots, you are traveling 1 nautical mile every 10 minutes. If it takes another boat 10 minutes + 80 seconds, they are traveling at around 5.3 knots.

You are correct - was over simplifying the morning after a few too many drinks the night before. Oops . Just to clarify a little more and make it real. Assume a 50 mile day, that means the Tayana would take about 80 more seconds per mile or 1.3 minutes per mile more x 50 miles which is just over an hour longer. That kind of time over distance can really add up on a passage. Now recognize that PHRF assumes a windward/leeward race course, this does not account specifically for boat speed but rather is a handicap system to account for speed, acceleration etc.

So for cruising, what you really care about is average boat speed [think waterline length] and comfort [think displacement vs length and hull shape]. The more modern hull designs allow for faster passages which offer certain advantages.

[wannabe4]

thanks guys..........always appreciated..........

[Capnblu]

When you get there in the racer/ cruiser, you can go to sleep, and feel like a wreck, when ya make landfall in the Tayana, you can go to the party If speed is your thing, why not just out race the weather in a powerboat.

[RichH]

Originally Posted by wannabe4

Ladies and gentlemen, I once again call on the collective wisdom of this forum.

I am interested in a discussion of the performance of a full keeled boat with forefoot cutaway and a cutter rig. Specifically, how well upwind does a Tayana 37 perform? Besides the fact that it has a wide shroud why does the full keel inhibit upwind pointing ability?


For those of you with experience sailing on a 1980's era Tayana 37 what do you think of its upwind performance? Speed?

Thanks in advance to all who respond!!

Answer to above: Cutters (full keel cutters) usually have dynamic RIG TENSION problems, that if not recognized and corrected/adjusted on-the-fly will/often result in abysmal 'performance', especially 'pointing ability'. Once those rig tension anomalies are considered and corrected/adjusted a full keel boat 'can' come somewhat close (but not 'that' close) to the 'performance' of a simple-rigged sloop.

I have a Ty37 which I club race in PHRF and also do a bit a distance cruising.
You really need to define more what you mean by 'performance' (ala a Ty37).

A 'plain vanilla' Ty37 (PHRF-NE @ 174) will be somewhat a dog for round the buoys racing if not 'enhanced' by hull fairing, slick bottom paint, keel leading edge reshaping, comprehensive change of rigging tensions, change to 'race-cut' (flat luff entry) sails, feathering prop., etc.

Detractive to (racing) performance is an ungainly and extremely heavy (aluminum) mast (tender and s-l-o-w rolling period), a mast that is erroneously placed ~20" too far aft. These (1975) design and 'yard execution' errors can be somewhat easily remedied: relocation of position of maximum draft in the mainsail to be 15-18" 'more forward' than 'normal' sail design - also necessitating a 'more flat' / less maximum draft in a newly cut sail. The mast plan was originally designed for a substantial rake. With the apparent boo-boos, even with 'cruising-cut' sails all one has to do is bring the mast perfectly 'straight up' / perpendicular and apply hard halyard tension to force the PoMxDrft forward in the mainsail to easily attain a neutral helm. Without such 'mods', a plain vanilla Ty37 will exhibit a LOT of weather helm and keel skid; with the 'mods' you can have a neutral or 'dead fish' helm.

The second performance 'issue' in the Ty37, and most 'cutters' / 'double headed' rigs, is the eternal/infernal 'load sharing' between the two forward stays (headstay - jib; forestay - foreSTAYs'l). Without adequate means to control the variable stay tensions (by runners, differential tensioner on the forestay) the shape of the headsail/genoa 'can' become 'slack'. What causes the 'differential tensions' is typically the genoa 'loads up' and such load 'transfers to the forestay (where the staysail lives) - this dynamically 'unloads' the headstay tension and causes the headsail luff to "fall way off to leeward, increases draaft, and causes draft-aft in the headsail". Slackness in the forestay will result in diminished pointing ability, aggressive heeling, the keel skidding off to leeward, ... and the boat becoming a 'pig' when beating.
There is a very steep learning curve for 'sloop drivers' when they start sailing 'cutters'.
The corrective options are to slack down the forestay tension to less than 5-10% rig tension when beating, applying thin draft stripe along the luff to ensure that the 'luff hollow' that the sailmaker cut into the genoa/jib remains under control and MATCHES the normal sag in the headstay. The slacking down on the forestay will transfer tension to the headstay - allowing the headstay to 'match' the inbuilt 'curve' at the luff of the headsail. Early Island Packets had an on-the-fly forestay tension control but since that system was all-wire probably had many failures due to the wire turning over small sheeves, modern ultra-high strength line could allow this concept an easy solution to the variable tension sharing of the forward stays.

Note: the only aerodynamicaly correct treatise ever written for use of a STAYSAIL (under a jib/genoa): http://www.arvelgentry.com/magaz/The...e_Head_Rig.pdf If you follow the advice given in this article, it will pay dividends in staysail performance.
FORGET totally such erroneous concepts as 'slot effect' when sailing with a staysail.

Once a Ty37 is set up as above, I find that sometimes I can get LIFT towards windward out of the keel, as one can experience out of a high aspect fin. I used to win a lot of 'pewter' with my Ty37 in 'club races'.
Typically, I can point (not pinch) @ ~85°M, without the above one will probably get only 100°M. Depending on the windstrength and seastate I usually barberhaul the jib/genoa sheets. Staysail is flown in 'anything over 5 kts.
You really need a clubfoot (or Hoyt-Boom) if you want any 'performance' out of the staysail; otherwise, you will have a 'badly twisted' staysail on anything other than a beat.
My WAG estimate is that my current config. gets me to about 165 PHRF.

I club-race PHRF and cruise from the Canadian Maritimes to 'da islands'. Ive been through F9 stuff a few times - and will make positive comments of the 'performance' of the Ty37 in 'stink' conditions (even with a full 'cruising load'). With this boat set up for 'performance', I often sail (well) during those 'light' conditions when most others are 'motoring'.

If I had it to do all over again, Id choose a Perryboat with a modified fin (Valiant, Tashiba, Passport, etc.) and with 'split underbody' ... for better 'performance'. A Ty37, IMHO, is well 'over-canvassed' - having all the sail area one needs to keep her 'up near hull-speed'.

Hope this helps.
:-)

[svsirius]

Originally Posted by RichH

If I had it to do all over again, Id choose a Perryboat with a modified fin (Valiant, Tashiba, Passport, etc.) and with 'split underbody' ... for better 'performance'. A Ty37, IMHO, is well 'over-canvassed' - having all the sail area one needs to keep her 'up near hull-speed'.

Hope this helps.
:-)

This is what I was really trying to say without going there. A more modern designed cruising boat such as referenced above will IMHO make a better cruiser for most unless you want the 'traditional' look etc. then buy your boat and don't worry about the performance. Had a friend who owned and lived aboard a Tayana 37 and then upgraded to a Passport 40. He was shocked at the sailing performance difference.

So have fun and go sailing