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post #11 of 17 Old 03-18-2010 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SVCarolena View Post
Why would you want to delete the USCG documentation? As the Dog noted, it is prefered by banks. It is also good if you ever plan to take the boat out of US waters, and will make possilble resale down the road that much easier. Several people at my marina have said that they wish they documented at the time of sale rather than going with state registration. Just curious.
Guys,

I appreciate all your advice, but these decisions have basically already been made. Nothing ever seems to escape debate up here - not even boat fenders. Without getting into more detail than I want to, here are a few basic points:
  • It is a big no-no (and illegal in many states) to have a boat both titled and documented. It facilitates fraud, because the boat can have a clear title but liens against the documentation (or vice-versa).
  • The decision to delete the documentation was basically made by the current owner when he decided to title the boat. He was required by law to delete that documentation at that point, and he told me he had done it. But when I called USCG I discovered that he did not do it. So now I am making him do it under the "clear and unencumbered title" provision of my purchase agreement.
  • There is a clear, simple procedure to delete documentation (as long as there are no liens). It is much more difficult to delete a state title once it exists. So changing directions on the current owner's decision would be very difficult.
  • I am paying cash for this boat. It costs <$15,000. I don't care what banks think. Plus, as I already said, this decision was basically already made - although poorly executed - by the current owner.
  • This is a friggin' Catalina 250. The only way it will get to another country's waters is on a trailer or on a freighter. It is questionable whether it actually should have qualified for USCG documentation in the first place - but that was the fault of the prior prior owner.
  • As a purely aesthetic matter, the transom lacks sufficient space to display the hailing port. it has a walk-through section to port, an outboard motor starboard, and a transom-mounted rudder in the middle. There's about enough room left for 18 point Helvetica. I do not want to clutter up the sides of the boat by putting a hailing port on both sides.

Ulladh and Allanbc: You win the door prize for the correct answer to my original question. Thanks!


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Last edited by TakeFive; 03-18-2010 at 09:40 AM.
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post #12 of 17 Old 03-20-2010 Thread Starter
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FYI, I have been able to confirm verbally with both PA and USCG that there are no liens against this boat's title or documentation. I did not have to pay a fee since I did not require it in writing. I'm sure that if I were financing the purchase I would have had to get it in writing.


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1991 15' Trophy (Lake Wallenpaupack)
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post #13 of 17 Old 03-20-2010
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It would be wise to get it in writing, just as a CYA move. That way if someone has an undocumented lien on the boat, you will have more of a chance of getting clear of it, with proof of a good faith effort to check such. Also, make sure the P&S agreement says that you are receiving the boat "free and clear of all encumbrances" or something to that effect. YMMV as IANAL.

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FYI, I have been able to confirm verbally with both PA and USCG that there are no liens against this boat's title or documentation. I did not have to pay a fee since I did not require it in writing. I'm sure that if I were financing the purchase I would have had to get it in writing.

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post #14 of 17 Old 03-20-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulladh View Post
PA boat title lein information request;

http://www.fish.state.pa.us/images/p...ms/pfbc_t9.pdf

Only for leins recorded against the PA title.
This is why banks like documented boats better. Liens against a documented vessel all show up with the Coast Guard: one stop shopping. Liens against state titles... you would have to check all 50 states to see if the boat was ever registered there: big hassle. If you can keep the vessel documented, it's much easier.
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post #15 of 17 Old 03-20-2010 Thread Starter
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Quote:
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This is why banks like documented boats better. Liens against a documented vessel all show up with the Coast Guard: one stop shopping. Liens against state titles... you would have to check all 50 states to see if the boat was ever registered there: big hassle. If you can keep the vessel documented, it's much easier.
I already explained why I cannot keep this boat documented, even if I wanted to. Your advice is appreciated, but not followed in this case.

Let me ask you out of curiosity, how many 25 foot vessels have you seen documented? Do you really think this little boat is 10 net tons?

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"9. SELLER shall, on or before the date of closing, provide the Closing Agent with all necessary title documents, bills of sale, and releases, as may be required to convey title free of liens and encumbrances to PURCHASER. The SELLER shall pay all taxes and penalties due up to and including the date of closing. In addition, any fees required to restore SELLERíS title documents and to discharge any SELLERíS obligations at closing shall be paid by SELLER."


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post #16 of 17 Old 03-20-2010
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To be USCG documented, last I checked, it only needs to be NET FIVE TONS, not NET TEN TONS. Also, boats as small as the Flicka 20 have been USCG documented.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RhythmDoctor View Post
I already explained why I cannot keep this boat documented, even if I wanted to. Your advice is appreciated, but not followed in this case.

Let me ask you out of curiosity, how many 25 foot vessels have you seen documented? Do you really think this little boat is 10 net tons?

For Sailingdog's benefit:

"9. SELLER shall, on or before the date of closing, provide the Closing Agent with all necessary title documents, bills of sale, and releases, as may be required to convey title free of liens and encumbrances to PURCHASER. The SELLER shall pay all taxes and penalties due up to and including the date of closing. In addition, any fees required to restore SELLERíS title documents and to discharge any SELLERíS obligations at closing shall be paid by SELLER."

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You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

óCpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

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post #17 of 17 Old 03-20-2010 Thread Starter
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Oops, I meant 5 net tons. All I know is when I reviewed the calculation with the USCG lady on the phone, there seemed to be some "errors" in the information that was filed, for the purpose of getting the thing approved. This was done by the prior prior owner, and yet another reason why I want it deleted.


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1991 15' Trophy (Lake Wallenpaupack)
1985 14' Phantom (Lake Wallenpaupack)
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