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Seeking Performance Oriented, Offshore Capable...

9K views 22 replies 8 participants last post by  CAlbertson 
#1 ·
... 42-ish footer in the $200 - 250K range. I''m thinking J-42, Hanse 41, Dufour 40, Sabre 42 or Tartan 41. In my price range only the Hanse would be new, all others would used (not that that''s a problem), and I may have to wait for them to become available.... I mostly sail on the Chesapeake Bay with wife and two small kids in the summer, but have aspirations for Bermuda, New England and/or Caribbean. I don''t race, per se, but I''ll admit it; I prefer going faster than others! My timing is next spring at the earliest, so I have time. My "family driven" requirements are for a relatively new boat with three cabins (only one need be "real") and at least one "real" head (preferably with separate shower). I realize that I may not be able to meet all of the family requirements, but hey, I''ll deal with that! My questions are: What other boats should I consider? Thoughts to help me decide between my choices (pros, cons, etc.)? Other things to consider?
 
#2 ·
I''ve sailed with my family and found that 36'' is plenty of boat to handle. If you have to go bigger to get the cabins & separate spaces you want, be sure the sail handlin systems are in place for when you''re shorthanded, or you may spend a lot of time wishing you had bigger crew or a smaller boat. Also, draft on a 42'' J isn''t an issue for cruising (fast) in Chesapeake Bay? It would be in our harbor on Long Island Sound, where there''s less of a reputation for shallow water.
 
#3 ·
Paul-
Thanks for the advice... we''ve got a 36 footer now, and space isn''t so much a problem. It''s more the ever present "move up" bug manifested as the family''s desire to be more comfortable and my desire to go faster. Also your point about short-handed sailing is well-taken... I am essentially single-handing while my wife watches the kids. So we''ll add this to the lever-growing list of stated criteria along with a maximum 6 foot draft. Godd thing we''re in no real hurry, this may take a while.
 
#4 ·
tarmand: I purchased a Hanse 371 last fall. Very pleased with the purchase so far. Looking forward for winter to end so I can start using the boat again. I too am Chesapeake based, I keep the boat in Galesville. I think the Hanse 411 is a great value as compared to its competition. As to your situation where you single hand while the wife watches the kids, same deal for me. As you probably know, Hanse comes standard with a self tacking jib. It has made single handling with the family so very easy, even in some very strong winds. My boat also has a large genoa that is used without the self tailing track, so you have all kinds of options with this rig. Happy to give you more info on Hanse if you like. You can email me at jopert@krooth.com if you have any questions.

Jon
 
#5 ·
You can also take a look at Dehler 39...
She is a very well made boat with two or three cabin options.You can cruise comfortable and fast... and with adding an optional electric winch you can single hand with the help of a good auto pilot like Raytheon 6001+...
Good Luck
 
#6 ·
Ever concider a Hinckley Bermuda 40 Yawl? There seem to be a number of nice examples on the market in your price rance. Workmanship on these is second-to-none, and owners of them usually take fanatical care of them. The split of the sail plan into two makes for much more managable sail handling for one person, as far as effort goes, just more of ''em! And the B-40 has a centerboard for gunk hole inquisitiveness! Blue water capable, although not as roomy by today''s standards. But hey, when you have the prettiest boat in the ancorage, who cares?
 
#7 ·
I was going to mention a Hinck B40. They are smallish below, but the feel of her underway is incredible. Of course mine is for sale. Email in interested: asking $119K homeportoc@aol.com You can see a few pics on my personal page. We are going bigger in size and amount of hulls. Heading back to a cruising catamaran. Long story....
 
#8 ·
I actually considered getting something along the lines of a used Hinckley. They are gorgeous... but are they "performance oriented"? Having only admired them from afar, I have no idea. I also really like the Little Harbor 38, but it doesn''t meet my accomodation needs. It''s the accomodation needs that are probably going to kill the "classic beauty" dream. I''m not shelving it yet though...
 
#9 ·
With all due respect, I would not consider the Hinckley Bermuda 40 Yawls to be performance boats. They were considered slow even in thier day doing well in races because of a very favorable rating in a long dead rating system. While I know that they have been used successfully for offshore cruising, I am also not sure that I would consider them to be very good offshore boats as well. In my experience they are quite wet and tend to have an uncomfortable motion especially in a short seas, where they they tend to pitch and roll more than more modern designs that have been designed for offshore cruising such as a Valiant 40.

In terms of performance, the Valiant, while no rocketship, is roughly 40 seconds a mile faster. 40 seconds a mile is very significant especially in longer passages. More modern 40 footers are several minutes a mile faster than the Hinckley Bermuda 40 Yawls.

While the Bermuda 40 Yawls are beautiful to look at and are neat to sail as a piece of history, a lot of positive things have happened in the yacht design world in the nearly 50 years since she was designed. She was designed in a period when traditional design principles were abandoned to create vessels that were contorted to meet an aberation in the racing rules. She was designed in a period when modern seakeeping design principles were yet to be understood. They are neat boats if speed and comfort are not an issue but that does not seem to be the case with this request.

Respectfully,
Jeff
 
#10 ·
Jeff- Thanks for your perspective on the Hinckley. I was pretty sure that an older "upscale" boat would not meet my accomodation/performance requirements, which is why it wasn''t on the original list (and why I posted the question). Do you have any thoughts on the boats on my original list?
 
#11 ·
Hello, I am not sure of your accomodation needs but if you like the Little Harbor 38, you would love a Wauquiez Hood 38 Mark II. She is the sistership to the Little Harbor and Bristol 38.8. Her lines on deck are a little more euro sleek than the more traditional Bristol and Little Harbor but unlike her two sisterships, she has a very nice aft quarter cabin that has quite a bit of standing room.

The Wauquiez Hood 38 PHRF is 129 (New Engand basecap) and at 22,000 lbs with about a 31 ft waterline, she is quite sea kindly. I looked at quite a few boats up to 43 ft and found her accomodations below to be comparable (of course there is no large aft cabin with queen sized berth like you would find on some 42ft CC''s, but then most of those boats rob space from the saloon and forward cabin).

Just a thought, as I am still very happy with mine.

Best to all

John
 
#12 ·
The Chesapeake favors boats with good light air performance and the ability to quickly adapt to a blow. While people use boats with tremendous draft, there are some real advantages to a boat that draws less than 6''6 or so. Going offshore requires a boat that is well engineered as well. All of the boats on your list are probably suitable for the Chesapeake with the posible exception of the Dufour which is a little heavy and low on sail area. I would suggest if you are looking for performance in a boat over 40 feet then you are looking for a boat with a PHRF number below the mid-70''s with something rated in the 40 to 50 range obviously offering better performance.

As you note, J-boats offer a pretty wide range of boats that might suit your needs. The J-42 is one of the ''yachtier'' choices in the J-boat line up. It is a stretched, yachted up version of the J-40. You can find good clean J-40''s for far less than your budget. A slightly higher perforamance choice is the J-120. These are nice because they can be sailed in most conditions with a non-overlapping jib and have a sprit flown assymetrical chute. Amother really super choice is the J-44''s. This is an older design that offers really good performance and have been used for circumnavigations. Again for cruising purposes you would probably use a #2 which is an easy sail to handle even short handed. Another option is the J-130. These 43 footers are much rarer than the 44 but are neat boats that offer good performance and a fractional with sprit rig which makes for a really easy boat to handle short handed. One nice thing about the J-boats on this list is that most of them have good ventilation.

Other options might include:
Beneteau First 40.7:
I know that Beneteau takes a lot of hits on this BB, but the First series are much better engineered than the ''number'', oceanis or Idylle series. I have spent a lot of time on these boats. They are well engineered and sail extremely well. The one that I race on has over 10,000 offshore miles plus four seasons of hard racing and still looks like a new boat. While they have a deep draft for the Chesapeake, the boat that I sail on routinely cruises pretty widely on the Bay with just the owner, his wife and young daughter. One nice thing about the 40.7 is that they have excellent ventilation.

Beneteau First 42s7:
These Farr designed 42 footers are pretty neat boats. While they do not appear to be as well constructed as the 40.7''s or as performance oriented, they would make great Bay boats and could be used offshore for the kinds of hops that you are suggesting.

C&C 44: These were available as Keel/CB boats and should be well below your budget limit. Performance should be similar to the Tartan or Sabre.

Dehler 39: These are neat boats in a lot or ways. They are reasonably fast and with a fractional rig should be pretty easy to handle. They are very well constructed.

Dehler DS 41: these are more cruise oriented than most on this list but are very suitable to your needs. Dehlers are well constructed and offer a nice design balance and detailing.

Frers 41 (Carroll marine)
There were several versions of this boat but the cruising version would be a very suitable boat for your purposes.

Hanse 411:
I am still trying to form a final opinion on Hanse. They seem to offer a lot of boat for the money. They are attractive in a lot of ways, combining a modern hull and rig with traditional design clues. I really liked the 371 that was at the Annapolis show, but there were funny details that left me a little concerned like the lack of a sealed and vented propane locker (they were designed for CNG so in Europe a CNG locker does not need to be sealed).

IMX-40: These are nice dual purpose boats that seem well constructed.

Sabre 42 and 425: Sabre builds a nice boat. They are intended to be coastal cruisers and often have a layout that is less than perfect for offshore work. Relative to this list they offer one of the better build qualities but lower performance.

Saga 43: While I am not a big fan of the Saga 43, these were intended to do just what you are proposing.

Tartan also offers a pretty wide range of boats in this size. While most are pretty well constructed, like the Sabre, they intended as coastal cruisers and so have less than ideal offshore interior layouts.

Regards
Jeff
 
#14 ·
Jeff,

Which model Dufour 40 are you talking about that is "a little heavy and low on sail area"? The only straight Dufour 40 I know of is the brand new design that has yet to hit these shores as far as I know. It''s displ. is about 3,000 lbs less than the J-40, J-42 or the Hanse 411 and it''s stated sail area is greater than any of those also. If the boat in question is the Dufour Classic 41, it still displaces about 1500-2000 lbs less than any of the above 3 boats. Is there another D-40 out there?
 
#15 ·
The Dufour that I think of as the ''Dufour 40'' was a 1980''s model (which I believe was marketed in Europe as the 9200 which referred to its metric waterline length). They are listed as weighing 19,845 lbs which is roughly 1,500lbs more than the J-40. They sail on a much shorter waterline and so have a significantly heavier L/D of 280 vs the J-40''s L/D of 203. Sail area wise neither boat has a very generous sail plan but the J-40 should offer better light air performance with its SA/D of 17.33 vs the Dufour at 16.73. This seems to be reflected in thier PHRF ratings of 90 for the Dufour and 75 for the J-40.

I am not familiar with the new Dufour 40 that you referred to. It looks like a really nice boat with high quality materials going into its construction. I expecially like the rig and like the sound of the tall rig version for the Chesapeake. I would like to see a two cabin/one head version, but with a vee berth instead of the pullman style berth shown. I find Pulman berths a real pain in the butt as one person always has to let the other one out and you can''t sleep in them on one tack.

I also must admit that Dufour''s Classic 41 is a lighter boat than I remembered. I never liked the 41''s hull form which was a carry over from IOR days.

Jeff
 
#16 ·
I just went through the Dufour website. I am partularly taken with their injection molding technique which does away with an inner liner for the deck. I am also impressed with their use of foam coring rather than Balsa.

Jeff
 
#17 ·
One more aside, I assumed that Tarmand was talking about the older Dufour because he said he was buying a used boat. Perhaps given his price range, I should have assumed that he meant the newer 40 which I was unfamiliar with before this line of discussion.

Jeff
 
#18 ·
One personal note:
I was at the Paris boat show when the new Dufour 40 was introduced.
It is a collaboration between grand Soleil and Dufour which are the same company now.It is a better and more performance oriented boat than Classic series...
But it is still nowhere close to the build qualities of a Dehler or J Boats..
Fair Winds
 
#19 ·
I was talking about the new Dufour 40. It seems like it has some fans out there. Given my original stated accommodations needs of two aft cabins, a forward cabin, and a head with a shower, the "leaders in the clubhouse" (pardon the golf reference) are currently: Used J-44 "A Plan" (would have to be pretty old to fit in my price range, plus it seems sacrilegious to own one of these without racing her); Used Dehler 39; New Hanse 411; New Dufour 40. - Tim
 
#20 ·
Jeff,

Just wondering what you see in the Dufour Classic hulls that are a carry over from IOR. You''ve said that previously about the Classic 38 and now the 41. From what I can tell, the hulls of the Classics are rather typical wide ass stern, canoe shapes that are so common today in cruisers-- very plump in the ends in fact and no "tortured" hull shapes from the IOR days with pinched ends. From your previous comments, I thought you were referring to the rig dimensions and not the hulls, but not the case. Just wondering what I''m missing.
 
#21 ·
As I see the Classic 41 hull form, it has a fairly pinched transom with steeply rising buttock lines in the run, a comparatively full bow and deep canoe body with the center of bouyancy pretty far forward at least as compared to more modern, or IMS related designs. It might help to compare the hull form of the Classic 41 to that of the newer Dufour 40 to see the difference.

And yes I do think that the rig of the classic 42 is that of an IOR-2 derived proportion.

Jeff
 
#23 ·
Before I bought My own boat I used to charter. The carter company had a "Passport" this is a geat cruiser design by Robert Perry. I''ve been on the Passport 40 one night when the C.G. had an advisory out of high wind and seas The P40 is still fun to sail in those conditions.

It''s one of the nicest looking boats you will ever see.

All of Perry''s designs are good blue water layouts. They are not dock condos in that they lack big wide open interiors but favor narower passages where you can move at sea without being thrown about

Here is a description I found on google:
http://www.wagnerstevens.com/wagnerstevens.com.nsf/75d3f70fd42297e385256941007ac647/1c4831ad558f3dae85256b580059cc25?OpenDocument
 
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