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  #21  
Old 04-25-2010
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Looking at any photo online of a Gemini afloat ( and there are many thousands) it should be pretty easy to see about where the waterline should be. If this one is so heavy as to cut the speed almost in half, wouldn't it be near awash?

All four corners would have to be equally flooded in order not to put some kind of a list on the boat, wouldn't that be highly unlikely?

And if the boat were flooded to that extent, it would sail really really badly, too, wouldn't it? Problem would not be engine specific.

I wouldn't call a handful of leaking float chamber issues a big problem out of a thousand hulls. It's something to check, all right, but a few people having issues and talking about them over and over and over on the internet would lead one to believe that these things fill up and sink right out of the factory.

None of the other 990 owners bother to write in and say that their boat is floating just fine.
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  #22  
Old 04-25-2010
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I went over the pictures I took of the boat and the bottom paint is clearly visable 3-4 inches above the waterline all around the boat. There is also serveral inches between the bottom paint and the aft steps. So judging from that the boat is not sitting low in the water, nor is it overwieght.

The seller seemed the type to take miticulous care of his boat, there were no signs of neglect. Everything that was visable looked strait off the showroom.

He did mention the chambers, so I know he knew they existed, but we did not check them during the sea trial...we will definitly give them a look during the survey.

We did raise and lower the centerboards, but we did so while at the dock, before we were underway.

Thanks again to everyone reading and posting.

-Will
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  #23  
Old 04-25-2010
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seems to keep coming back to the drivetrain or prop, doesn't it.
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  #24  
Old 04-25-2010
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Another thought is to check the repair records for anything that has been fixed, improved. Some change may have had an unintended problem.

You seem to have checked all the normal stuff, at this point your imagination goes wild.

Making sure the RPM you see is the RPM you get would be a good place to start.

An upgrade to the transmission gearing? I'm reaching here.
It will sure be interesting when you find it.
Has anyone had a prop with damage that they just ground down to hide it? An inch off the tip would cause something. Really reaching!!!

Last edited by davidpm; 04-25-2010 at 02:42 PM.
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Old 04-25-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidpm View Post
Another thought is to check the repair records for anything that has been fixed, improved. Some change may have had an unintended problem.

You seem to have checked all the normal stuff, at this point your imagination goes wild.

Making sure the RPM you see is the RPM you get would be a good place to start.

An upgrade to the transmission gearing? I'm reaching here.
It will sure be interesting when you find it.
Has anyone had a prop with damage that they just ground down to hide it? An inch off the tip would cause something. Really reaching!!!
The owner is present, he seems to have maintained the boat well... and he doesn't KNOW the reason? Fishy.

7.2 vs. 4.9 knots is huge. 2/3rds of the power is missing.

You never mentioned - no sailing during the sea trial? A sea trial without a good breeze should be canceled until there is one.
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  #26  
Old 04-25-2010
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I have Gemini #987. I make 7 knts at 3000rpm. I routinely leave a board down as it helps with maneuvering, that's not it.

Raising boards might give me a 1/4 knots.
Make sure you raise them at survey just to make sure they work - it's a half day each of labor to re-rig them, and rebuilding is a bear.

If you made 3200 rpm as full throttle that is low, the engine is rated at 3600 and should make that with the normal 15x12 propeller.
Raise the drive leg and let the engine go to full rpm, pull out the manual and confirm my unloaded rpm memory - 3850.
Water is from the seacock in the starboard hull, there is no overheat danger running the engine with the leg up (and you want to test the pump / leg anyway).

If the boat capsized, and I'd love to hear that story, then the engine might be unable to deliver full power, and the propeller was changed to FOOL a buyer who wasn't paying attention to rpm vs speed. To my knowledge only 3 Gem's have capsized, all while being chartered bare boat. If that was a charter boat that 900 hours is a lie.

A Gemini with that weight loaded on it should float with at least one inch of hull between the water line and the two white drain holes from the rudder locker, check that - then take a torpedo (small) level and check for trim fore and aft. She could be low in the bow, or low in the stern.

If the flotation chambers where full you'd be WAyyyyy down in the water - that's over 2000 pounds even fresh. It would also be very noticeable if just one were flooded.

Almost all Gemini's list to port about 1 degree when no one is onboard - that's the battery weight. A 2001 105MC hull will have 1 inch of immersion per 450 pounds per hull (900 pounds to the inch if you load her exactly even).
Walking from one side to the other should rock the boat in her slip.

If the hulls are out of alignment that's a whole different problem and a walk away boat. I presume it would need lasers to determine that from the outside but a survey would find twisted bulkheads and beams. She'd also leak like a sieve because her deck would be warped.

Good luck - get the story on the capsize and shoot me a PM please.
If you need more input / feedback try the yahoo group or you can find me at Anything Sailing Forum - same username, I'm a moderator over there.
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Last edited by chucklesR; 04-25-2010 at 03:56 PM.
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  #27  
Old 04-25-2010
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We did sail during the sea trial, but I know there are far to many variables during sailing to be able to tell if we were going any slower than I would have expected. To the best of my knowledge we at about 45 degrees into the wind. The wind was about 9-11 knots, and we were sailing 3-4 knots. Then we tacked switching the wind off the port side (still at 45 degrees) and kept the same speed. Then we motored back.

We did wind the engine up to 3500 RPMs , but she didn't sound like she liked it very much, and it did get us right at 5 knots. This was a very brief period (maybe 20 seconds) the rest of the time it was 3200RPMs and 4.8 knots or 2700RPMs pushing us at about 4 knots.

To be honest, I don't care much if it is a fault with the engine becuase I don't plan to use it much...but if the performance hit was something wrong with the boat that affected the boat likewise under sail, then it would be a major issue.

The boat was never chartered and was capsized by the current owner in the lake she is in now. He said he was used to sailing monohulls and it got away from him. He showed me the $78,000 in reciepts and the post accident survey and eveything seemed on the up and up.

She is a perferct boat for me and my family, and I really want everything to work out. I really want us to find out the issue next tuesday and you all are helping very much.

Last edited by TexasWill; 04-25-2010 at 04:47 PM.
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Old 04-25-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasWill View Post
To be honest, I don't care much if it is a fault with the engine becuase I don't plan to use it much..
I planned to marry a billionaire virgin nymphomaniac.
Funny how things don't work out the way you plan.


look, if this was a $5000 investment, and this was a 9.9 hp outboard that was clapped out, then I'd agree- ignore it. But it ain't.

This is serious money. In some parts of North America, that same money you spend on a Gemini would buy you a very nice house on an acre of land.
Would you pay the same amount for that house if the furnace didn't work, the electrical system was only 80 volts, or you only had cold water? Of course not.

It sounds like you fell in love with the boat. That's good- if you don't love her, she won't love you back. But that doesn't mean you need to get stupid.

if everything else checks out, hold back $5k, and/or, require the seller to have the engine diagnosed and repaired as a condition of sale.
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  #29  
Old 04-25-2010
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Originally Posted by bljones View Post
if everything else checks out, hold back $5k, and/or, require the seller to have the engine diagnosed and repaired as a condition of sale.
I agree completely...If we find out what is wrong, I will definitely expect the seller and I to come to some kind of financial agreement on what it will take to make it right. My only fear is that we will not find out what it the issue is.
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  #30  
Old 04-25-2010
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Quote:
To be honest, I don't care much if it is a fault with the engine becuase I don't plan to use it much...but if the performance hit was something wrong with the boat that affected the boat likewise under sail, then it would be a major issue.
I'm not an engine expert, but it seems to me that there are serious problems if you can't make more than 5 knots w/o the engine complaining.

While I know that you intend to sail and not motor much, you need to consider that if you need power NOW and FAST to get yourself and your family out of trouble, its not the sails that you will turn to, its the motor.

Consider the summer storm that blows up suddenly as you are 1/2 way on your way home. You HAVE to drop sails because the storm looks severe. You bettered have full confidence in your motor to keep the boat facing into the storm and steady through gusts pushing the hulls around. 5 kts, straining, on a nice day, AIN'T GOING TO CUT IT.

Sounds like you love the boat. I know we love ours, but rethink the motor issue. You and your family's safety WILL rely on it. There are other Gemini's out there....

EDIT: Another point that hubby just mentioned; the engine also provides power via the alternator for battery charging, etc that could be compromised or less efficient if the motor is underpowered or damaged in some way. Just one more reason to track down exactly what is going on......

Last edited by MMR; 04-25-2010 at 05:31 PM.
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