USCG Documentation & U.S. Citizenship & Insurance

[phboujon]

Hi All,

I have a strange question, but bear with me a moment.

My girlfriend and I are planning to buy a sailboat jointly. Because we are going cruising in international waters, we want the boat USCG documented.

However, I am not a U.S. citizen, but she is. According to the USCG, a U.S. citizen needs to be the sole owner (on the title) of the vessel in order for a vessel to be USCG documented.

So, basically I am going to hand over the money to her, and she will be buying and documentating the boat. I'll welcome ideas if there is another way around for us to jointly own the boat still.

Now, here is my question: To get insurance, I have a lot more experience than she does (for now), but can an owner designate a skipper for the boat to apply for insurance, or does an owner have to apply him/herself?

Thanks for any input to this situation

Cheers
Philippe

[sailingfool]

I'd call BoatUS and ask them how this can be worked out, they are pretty easy to work with.

See:
<****** language=JavaScript>var whitespace = " \t\n\r\f";function CapitalizeFirst(field)** field.value = stripInitialWhitespace(field.value); l = field.value.length; field.value = field.value.substring(0,1).toUpperCase() + field.value.substring(1, l);}function charInString (c, s)** for (i = 0; i < s.length; i++) ** if (s.charAt(i) == c) return true; } return false;}function daysInFebruary (year)** return ( ((year % 4 == 0) && ( (!(year % 100 == 0)) || (year % 400 == 0) ) ) ? 29 : 28 );}function get_validate_result(the_field, alert_message)** if (alert_message != '') ** alert (alert_message); the_field.select(); the_field.focus(); return false; } else return true; }function get_validate_result_wo_sel(the_field, alert_message)** if (alert_message != '') ** alert (alert_message); the_field.focus(); return false; } else return true; }function isDate (year, month, day)** var daysInMonth = new Array(); daysInMonth[1] = 31; daysInMonth[2] = 29; daysInMonth[3] = 31; daysInMonth[4] = 30; daysInMonth[5] = 31; daysInMonth[6] = 30; daysInMonth[7] = 31; daysInMonth[8] = 31; daysInMonth[9] = 30; daysInMonth[10] = 31; daysInMonth[11] = 30; daysInMonth[12] = 31; var intYear = parseInt(year,10); var intMonth = parseInt(month,10); var intDay = parseInt(day,10); // catch invalid days, except for February if (intDay > daysInMonth[intMonth]) return false; if ((intMonth == 2) && (intDay > daysInFebruary(intYear))) return false; return true;}function isDecimal (s)** var c; var i; var point_time = 0; for (i = 0; i < s.length; i++) ** c = s.charAt(i); if (((c < "0") || (c > "9")) && (c != ".")) return false; if (c == ".") point_time = point_time + 1; } if (point_time > 1) return false; return true;}function isInteger (s)** var c; var i; for (i = 0; i < s.length; i++) ** c = s.charAt(i); if ((c < "0") || (c > "9")) return false; } return true;}function isWhitespace (s)** // var s = the_item.value; var ch; var check_string = " \t\n\r\f"; if ((s == null) || (s.length == 0)) return true; for (i = 0; i < s.length; i++) ** ch = s.charAt(i); if (check_string.indexOf(ch) == -1) return false; } return true;}function stripCharsInBag (s, bag)** var i; var returnString = ""; for (i = 0; i < s.length; i++) ** var c = s.charAt(i); if (bag.indexOf(c) == -1) returnString += c; } return returnString;}function stripInitialWhitespace (s)** var i = 0; while ((i < s.length) && charInString (s.charAt(i), whitespace)) i++; return s.substring (i, s.length);}function stripWhitespace (s)** return stripCharsInBag (s, whitespace)}function valid_decimal(field)** if (isWhitespace(field.value)) return true; field.value = stripWhitespace(field.value);// alert ("valid_decimal *" + field.value); if (isDecimal(field.value)) return true; else return false; }function validate_email_old(field)** var validate_result = true; field.value = stripWhitespace(field.value); var s = field.value; var len = s.length; var i=0, j=0; if (len <= 5) validate_result = false; if (validate_result) ** for (i = 0; i < len-1; i++) if (s.charAt(i) == ' ') validate_result = false; } if (validate_result) ** for (i = 0; i < len; i++) if (s.charAt(i) == '@') j++; if (j != 1) validate_result = false; if (s.charAt(0) == '@') validate_result = false; if (s.charAt(len - 1) == '@') validate_result = false; } if (validate_result) ** j = 0; for (i = 0; i < len; i++) if (s.charAt(i) == '.') j++; if (j < 1) validate_result = false; } return validate_result;}function validate_email(field)** var validate_result = true; field.value = stripWhitespace(field.value); var s = field.value; var len = s.length; var i=0, j=0; var pos_a=0, pos_p=0; var error_msg=""; var hold_len = 0; if (len <= 5) error_msg = "less than 5 characters;"; if (error_msg == "") ** for (i = 0; i < len-1; i++) if (s.charAt(i) == ' ') error_msg = error_msg + "extra space;"; } if (error_msg == "") ** for (i = 0; i < len; i++) if (s.charAt(i) == '@') ** pos_a = i; j++; } if (j != 1) error_msg = error_msg + "not only one @;"; if (s.charAt(0) == '@') error_msg = error_msg + "@ in begining;"; if (s.charAt(len - 1) == '@') error_msg = error_msg + "@ in end;"; } if (error_msg == "") ** j = 0; for (i = 0; i < len; i++) if (s.charAt(i) == '.') ** pos_p = i; j++; } if (j < 1) error_msg = error_msg + "no .;"; } if (error_msg == "") ** hold_len = len - pos_p - 1; if (hold_len > 4 ) error_msg = error_msg + "more than 3 chars after last .;"; if (hold_len < 1 ) error_msg = error_msg + "less than 1 chars after last .;"; } if (error_msg == "") ** j = 0; for (i = pos_a; i < len; i++) if (s.charAt(i) == '_') j++; if (j > 0) error_msg = error_msg + "_ after @;"; } if (error_msg == "") ** for (i = 0; i < len; i++) ** single_char = s.charAt(i); if ((isInteger(single_char) == false) && ((single_char.toLowerCase() < "a") || (single_char.toLowerCase() > "z")) && (single_char != "_") && (single_char != ".") && (single_char != "@") && (single_char != "-") ) error_msg = error_msg + "has invalid char;"; } } if (error_msg == "") return true; else return false;}function validateRange(str_field,lowValue,highValue,nullAll owed)** var alert_message=''; var strval; str_field.value = stripInitialWhitespace(str_field.value); str = str_field.value; if ((nullAllowed==false) && (str=='')) ** alert_message = 'must have a value.'; } else ** if (isInteger(str)==false) ** alert_message = "must be a number without punctuation marks."; } else ** strval = parseInt(str,10); if ((strval < lowValue) || (strval > highValue)) ** alert_message = 'must be in the range ' + lowValue + '-' + highValue; } } } return alert_message;}function setDisableOpr(form2){if (document.form2.operated_years.value == 0) ** document.form2.priopr_boat_lengths1.disabled=true; document.form2.priopr_boat_lengths2.disabled=true; document.form2.priopr_boat_lengths3.disabled=true; document.form2.priopr_boat_lengths1.style.backgrou ndColor="#C0C0C0"; document.form2.priopr_boat_lengths2.style.backgrou ndColor="#C0C0C0"; document.form2.priopr_boat_lengths3.style.backgrou ndColor="#C0C0C0"; document.form2.priopr_boat_lengths1.value = ""; document.form2.priopr_boat_lengths2.value = ""; document.form2.priopr_boat_lengths3.value = ""; } else ** document.form2.priopr_boat_lengths1.disabled=false ; document.form2.priopr_boat_lengths2.disabled=false ; document.form2.priopr_boat_lengths3.disabled=false ; document.form2.priopr_boat_lengths1.style.backgrou ndColor="white"; document.form2.priopr_boat_lengths2.style.backgrou ndColor="white"; document.form2.priopr_boat_lengths3.style.backgrou ndColor="white"; } }function setDisableOwn(form2)** if (document.form2.owned_years.value == 0) ** document.form2.priown_boat_lengths1.disabled=true; document.form2.priown_boat_lengths2.disabled=true; document.form2.priown_boat_lengths3.disabled=true; document.form2.priown_boat_lengths1.style.backgrou ndColor="#C0C0C0"; document.form2.priown_boat_lengths2.style.backgrou ndColor="#C0C0C0"; document.form2.priown_boat_lengths3.style.backgrou ndColor="#C0C0C0"; document.form2.priown_boat_lengths1.value = ""; document.form2.priown_boat_lengths2.value = ""; document.form2.priown_boat_lengths3.value = ""; }else ** document.form2.priown_boat_lengths1.disabled=false ; document.form2.priown_boat_lengths2.disabled=false ; document.form2.priown_boat_lengths3.disabled=false ; document.form2.priown_boat_lengths1.style.backgrou ndColor="white"; document.form2.priown_boat_lengths2.style.backgrou ndColor="white"; document.form2.priown_boat_lengths3.style.backgrou ndColor="white"; }}///////////////function HidePriorCompany(FORM){document.form1.prior_compan y.style.visibility = 'hidden';//document.form1.prior_company.readOnly = true;//document.form1.prior_prem.Disabled=true;}function ShowPriorCompany(FORM){document.form1.prior_compan y.style.visibility = 'visible';//document.form1.prior_prem.Disabled=false;}function EnablePriorCompany(form1){document.form1.prior_com pany.disabled=false;}function DisablePriorCompany(form1){document.form1.prior_co mpany.disabled=true;document.form1.prior_company.v alue = 'NO';//alert(document.form1.prior_company.value);}functio n setDisableViolation(form2)** if (document.form2.violations_none.checked == true) {document.form2.violation0_year.disabled=true; document.form2.violation1_year.disabled=true; document.form2.violation2_year.disabled=true; document.form2.violation3_year.disabled=true; document.form2.violation0_year.value = ""; document.form2.violation1_year.value = ""; document.form2.violation2_year.value = ""; document.form2.violation3_year.value = ""; document.form2.violation0_type.disabled=true; document.form2.violation1_type.disabled=true; document.form2.violation2_type.disabled=true; document.form2.violation3_type.disabled=true; document.form2.violation0_type.value = ""; document.form2.violation1_type.value = ""; document.form2.violation2_type.value = ""; document.form2.violation3_type.value = "";} else {document.form2.violation0_year.disabled=false; document.form2.violation1_year.disabled=false; document.form2.violation2_year.disabled=false; document.form2.violation3_year.disabled=false; document.form2.violation0_type.disabled=false; document.form2.violation1_type.disabled=false; document.form2.violation2_type.disabled=false; document.form2.violation3_type.disabled=false;}}fu nction setDisableClaim(form1)** if (document.form1.claims_none.checked == true) {document.form1.claim1_year.disabled=true; document.form1.claim2_year.disabled=true; document.form1.claim3_year.disabled=true; document.form1.claim4_year.disabled=true; document.form1.claim1_year.value = ""; document.form1.claim2_year.value = ""; document.form1.claim3_year.value = ""; document.form1.claim4_year.value = ""; document.form1.claim1_cause.disabled=true; document.form1.claim2_cause.disabled=true; document.form1.claim3_cause.disabled=true; document.form1.claim4_cause.disabled=true; document.form1.claim1_cause.value = ""; document.form1.claim2_cause.value = ""; document.form1.claim3_cause.value = ""; document.form1.claim4_cause.value = "";} else {document.form1.claim1_year.disabled=false; document.form1.claim2_year.disabled=false; document.form1.claim3_year.disabled=false; document.form1.claim4_year.disabled=false; document.form1.claim1_cause.disabled=false; document.form1.claim2_cause.disabled=false; document.form1.claim3_cause.disabled=false; document.form1.claim4_cause.disabled=false;}}funct ion protectSSN(form2)** if (document.form2.ssn_1.value.length > 0) ** document.form2.ssn_1.value = "***"; document.form2.ssn_2.value = "**"; } }function setDisableMarinaAddr(form1)** if (document.form1.flag_residence.checked == true) {document.form1.marina_name.disabled=true; document.form1.marina_addr1.disabled=true; document.form1.marina_city.disabled=true; //document.form1.marina_state.disabled=true; document.form1.marina_zip5.disabled=true; document.form1.marina_name.value=""; document.form1.marina_addr1.value=""; document.form1.marina_city.value=""; //document.form1.marina_state.value=""; document.form1.marina_zip5.value=""; document.form1.marina_name.style.backgroundColor="#E6E6FA"; document.form1.marina_addr1.style.backgroundColor="#E6E6FA"; document.form1.marina_city.style.backgroundColor="#E6E6FA"; document.form1.marina_state.style.backgroundColor="#E6E6FA"; document.form1.keystate.style.backgroundColor="#E6E6FA"; document.form1.marina_zip5.style.backgroundColor="#E6E6FA";} else {document.form1.marina_name.disabled=false; document.form1.marina_addr1.disabled=false; document.form1.marina_city.disabled=false; document.form1.marina_state.disabled=false; document.form1.keystate.disabled=false; document.form1.marina_zip5.disabled=false; document.form1.marina_name.style.backgroundColor="white"; document.form1.marina_addr1.style.backgroundColor="white"; document.form1.marina_city.style.backgroundColor="white"; document.form1.marina_state.style.backgroundColor="white"; document.form1.keystate.style.backgroundColor="white"; document.form1.marina_zip5.style.backgroundColor="white";}}<****** language=JavaScript>var go_v = true;var whitespace = " \t\n\r\f";function validate_form(FORM)** var msg = ""; var validate_result = true; if (validate_result) ** a = FORM.member_flag.length; for (i = 0; i < a; i++) if (FORM.member_flag[i].checked == true) break; if (i >= a) validate_result = get_validate_result_wo_sel(FORM.member_flag[0], '"Are you a Member of any BoatU.S. Program?" must be chosen.'); }// new 08/17/2007 if (validate_result) ** if ((FORM.member_flag[1].checked == true) && (FORM.web_memkey.value == '')) //if ((FORM.member_flag[1].checked == true) && (!isNumeric(trim(FORM.web_memkey.value)))) validate_result = get_validate_result_wo_sel(FORM.web_memkey, '"Enter Member Number"'); } //if (validate_result) //** // if ((FORM.member_flag[0].checked == true) && trim(FORM.web_memkey.value != '')) // //if ((FORM.member_flag[0].checked == true) && ((trim(FORM.web_memkey.value > 0)) || trim(FORM.web_memkey.value != ''))) // //if ((FORM.member_flag[0].checked == true) && (!isWhitespace(FORM.web_memkey.value))) // validate_result = get_validate_result_wo_sel(FORM.web_memkey, '"Are you member"'); //} if (validate_result) ** if ((!isWhitespace(FORM.web_memkey.value)) && ((isWhitespace(FORM.web_last_name.value)) || (isWhitespace(FORM.web_zip.value)))) validate_result = get_validate_result_wo_sel(FORM.web_last_name,'"With Member Number, Last Name and Zip should be entered"'); } // if ((validate_result) && (FORM.hull_type.selectedIndex == 0)) ** validate_result = get_validate_result_wo_sel(FORM.hull_type, '"Boat Hull Type" must be chosen.'); } if ((validate_result) && (FORM.hull_type.selectedIndex != 6) && (isWhitespace(FORM.boat_length.value))) validate_result = get_validate_result(FORM.boat_length, 'Boat Length is required.'); if ((validate_result) && (FORM.hull_type.selectedIndex != 6) && (!isWhitespace(FORM.boat_length.value))) ** msg = validateRange(FORM.boat_length, 10, 120, true); if (msg != '') validate_result = get_validate_result(FORM.boat_length, 'Boat Length ' + msg); } if ((validate_result) && (FORM.hull_type.selectedIndex == 1) && (!isWhitespace(FORM.boat_length.value))) ** msg = validateRange(FORM.boat_length, 0, 100, true); if (msg != '') validate_result = get_validate_result(FORM.boat_length, 'Boat Length ' + msg); } if ((validate_result) && (FORM.hull_type.selectedIndex == 6) && (!isWhitespace(FORM.boat_length.value))) ** msg = validateRange(FORM.boat_length, 0, 120, true); if (msg != '') validate_result = get_validate_result(FORM.boat_length, 'Boat Length ' + msg); } if (validate_result) ** msg = validateRange(FORM.cvg_hull, 1, 99999999, true); if (msg != '') validate_result = get_validate_result(FORM.cvg_hull, 'Boat Value ' + msg); } if ((validate_result) && (FORM.hull_type.selectedIndex != 6) && (isWhitespace(FORM.cvg_hull.value))) validate_result = get_validate_result(FORM.cvg_hull, 'Boat Value is required.'); //if (validate_result) //** // a = FORM.angler_use.length; // for (i = 0; i < a; i++) // if (FORM.angler_use[i].checked == true) // break; // if (i >= a) // validate_result = get_validate_result_wo_sel(FORM.owner_type[0], '"Will the boat be used primarily for fishing?" must be chosen.'); //} //if ((validate_result) && (FORM.waters.selectedIndex == 0)) //** // validate_result = get_validate_result_wo_sel(FORM.waters, '"Waters where the boat will be used" must be chosen.'); //} //if (validate_result) //** // a = FORM.owner_type.length; // for (i = 0; i < a; i++) // if (FORM.owner_type[i].checked == true) // break; // if (i >= a) // validate_result = get_validate_result_wo_sel(FORM.owner_type[0], '"Is the boat owned by a corporation?" must be chosen.'); //} //if (validate_result) //** // if ((FORM.angler_use[1].checked == true) && (FORM.hull_type.value == 'W')) // validate_result = get_validate_result_wo_sel(FORM.angler_use[0], '"Personal Watercraft can not be used primarily for fishing"'); //} return validate_result;}//function checkMemberInfo()//**//if (FORM.check_member_info.checked=true){alert('check ed');}// else {alert('unchecked')};//}function showhelpdiv() {document.getElementById('help_div').style.display = 'block'; } function hidehelpdiv() {document.getElementById('help_div').style.display = 'none'; }

Welcome to BoatU.S. Marine Insurance. Please complete the following application for an online quote. In most cases, you will be able to bind coverage immediately. An asterisk (*) denotes required information. Please call 1-800-804-2628 if: You have more than four operators You have special requirements or situations

[capttb]

I believe that for most insurance companies if your GF meets minimal requirements (like a safety course) the rates would not necessarily be higher for her then you.

[phboujon]

Quick question, what kind of safety courses?

I only spoke to an agent at IMIS who asked whether we had USCG license... which obviously we don't. I was surpised they asked only that, so I am looking around at other insurance.

Thanks
Philippe

[remetau]

I think your insurance rates are going to be based more on boat age, type, survey condition, and location.

[JimHawkins]

You can form a corporation and both be shareholders. Google Delaware Corporation for more info than you want.

[capttb]

For recreational vessels rates are primarily based on location and the boat, most states offer a safety course as does Coast Guard Aux for which insurers will discount your rate (10%?). ASA and US sailing certifications also usually qualify for the reduction, I don't believe any higher qualifications will reduce rates for insuring a recreational vessel.

[hellosailor]

Phillipe, the other terribly obvious solution is for you and the gf to form a limited liability corporation or similar business entity, in which she holds 51% of the stock.

Last time I checked, the USCG would accept the vessel for documentation as long as a US citizen was at least the 51% (ismple majority) owner of the business that owned the vessel.

Now, whether there will be other complications (i.e. insurance) if the vessel is owned by a partnership or corporation, you'd want to check. Especially with regard to insurance rates and such.

And I hope your relationship is stable and long-term, since no matter who puts up the money--she'll now be the sole and legal owner of the boat if you just give her the money and do it that way. She may possibly have to pay income tax on the funds you give her, that's something else to check out, which could take a bite out of the funding. Make sure the fund transfer is properly documented, no matter how it is done.

[phboujon]

hellosailor, you bring some points I didnt think of. It would hurt to have to pay income taxt on funds we are basically "saving" together. We have been together for 4 years, and we have a joint bank account.

I am going to look into the corporation idea.

If I was to document with the state of California instead of USCG, how does it impact travelling to other countries with the boat? Would other countries refuse that documentation? I am sure the USCG documentation and the fact to be flying a U.S. flag has advantages, but I wonder how much advantages is that really?

Thanks
Philippe

[windward54]

California doesn't document vessels. They just register boats through the DMV. There is a small fee to register, plus a renewal fee due every other year. There is no requirement for U.S.citizenship. However, if you are traveling internationally, it is easier to get back and forth across the border when a boat is documented.