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  #11  
Old 02-08-2001
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Best Keel for Coastal and Blue Water Cruising

Thanks for the info on new ones. I think that you have to get into the much higher end (and thus much more costly) boats to find construction quality of the type you mentioned. I don''t see that many of the standard production boats like Bene''s (forget the lesser boats) are built any better. I think all standard production boats have some flaws, its really a question of price and value (and of course I value my life greatly). I have read terrible things about older Morgans and read owners reviews of how they are bullet proof. Heard C&C Landfall''s called C&C Laughables and read owners reviews of how they love them. I cannot understand why Beneteau would use iron in their keels and think their pan contruction is no better than Catalina''s but they say they have made more Atlantic crossings than any other boat.

The comment about the Marlon sea cocks is especially instructive. Anyone buying any boat should replace all sea cocks with bronze one. A minor and very cheap fix. I did find that on the 1989 C 36 that I could easily reach all of them. I agree and did mention a concern about rudders being deeper than keels.

I think each of us has to become better educated and look very closely at the boat they are getting into. The comments here have added more to my list of things to research and look at when I look at a boat.

If I had an infinite amount of $$$, I would certainly buy a perfectly built custom boat. Since I don''t, I look at what I can compromise on for what I can get and what I want. As do we all. I guess that why Hunter can still sell boats :O) But hey, no boat bashing, we should all stick to firm objective info to help each other out.

I need a boat that is very good value and that anything truly wrong can be easily and inexpensively fixed.... and... I want a large comfortable interior as I will be spending a lot of time there.

D - Are there any reasonably priced boats of the construction you mention?

Thanks

John
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  #12  
Old 02-08-2001
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Best Keel for Coastal and Blue Water Cruising

The fact that Beneteau seems to dominate the charter fleets suggests something. Don''t rule them out because of cast iron keel - they use lead for shoal draft keels.
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  #13  
Old 02-08-2001
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Yes, you are quite right and I think you made my point. :O)
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  #14  
Old 02-09-2001
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Best Keel for Coastal and Blue Water Cruising

I know a wealthy couple who just bought a C&C 43 CC. They have been in the boating business for their whole lives and are now retiring.

They are C&C fans like me and will make that really nice boat even better. If I wanted a big boat for that purpose I would do what they did and not buy a new boat.

The Cal 46 also has a good reputation.

Of the new boats I looked at last year I liked the Tartan quality. The Tartan 4200 is a really good sailor too. But again new boats are a bad deal.

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Old 02-09-2001
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Best Keel for Coastal and Blue Water Cruising

Mike:
I concure that a "seasoned" high quality boat is a better choice than a new C, B or H boat. They (HQ boats)also hold their value longer. As an example I have recently been offered $10,000 more for my Sabre 34 than the amount it was purchased for more than 7 years ago as the second owner.

New boats are not necessarily a bad deal, they just cost a lot more than used boats. I would say that if you are planning to keep a boat for a long time, you would not loose much money when the time came to sell it if, it was well maintained (updated and kept cosmetically very clean)and was a high quality boat to begin with such as a Tartan, Sabre, Ericson, Valiant, Passport, Shannon, Pacific Seacraft, Tayana, C & C, Hylas, Morris, Hinckley, Alden, Hallberg Rassey, Swan, Island Packet etc. All bets are off for resale if the economy is bad, that being the case you would have to sit tight, maintain course and ride out the storm (I suggest a double reef) if possible. All boats loose their resale value in this scenario in which supply and demand establishes price.

I still believe a higher quality used boat would be a better choice because there are not as many of these boats on the market as compared to the production boats built by C, B, and H.

Thats my story and I''m sticking to it!
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Best Keel for Coastal and Blue Water Cruising

I also agree with your statements, BUT I think that we are dealing with a historical anomoly that may not be repeated. I also think some people might argue with a couple boats on your list, but thats OK.

Historically, the boat industry has been through a couple of depressions and periods of hyperinflation during the past 20 yrs. It is that, in my opinion, that has led to the situation we have now where many of those boats like Hinckley''s have asking prices higher than when they were new. I am not sure that is a rule to follow for the future, but you are right in that it does indicate which are the better boats.

But again, everything has a cost. A used Alden may be 2-3 times the cost of a new C or B (I don''t think many people would lump those in with H, though they would with C&C... no slight against C&C''s). I personally think that is too much money given how many people have sailed such long distances in C''s & B''s. There is no question that if someone were to give me a boat, I would take a Passport, Valiant, Hylas or Shannon over any other boat. I might even buy a used one over a new C or B, given the same size for an equivalent price. But I am not sure you could even find one less than 20 yrs old for the same price you would pay for a new C or B.

I am not trying to be argumenative, I am very much enjoying this discussion and everyone''s comments. My point is that, I think the boat industry is at the point where the values of much older boats may plummet as people begin to reject the old "yacht 101" interior''s in favor of newer more comfortable designs and builders, like C build boats that are right on the very fine edge of being good safe boats built in the least expensive manner. I think that compels people like the gentleman who started this thread to consider new.

As for the future value of a boat. Much as I love those older boats, I think that in 10 yrs, a new C will be worth more than a 20 yo classic bought at the same price. Not much of a market for old boats. The reason we are seeing some 15-20 yo boats at high prices today is that they are right at their value break point, in my opinion. Except for the true classics like Alden and Hinckley.

Not sure where that leaves us but sure am having fun. Would rather be sailing, but the next best thing is chatting with good sailors about boats. And I am struggling with this very point: what age boat to get. After much thought, I am looking at boats that are 10-12 yrs old.

My best to all. Sorry to be so long winded.
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  #17  
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whoops... let me also hasten to add:

I also think there are good reasons for buying new. I can see Mr. Smith''s reasons for buying new: the dealer deals with any hassels, you get the nicest interiors and some very nice new features. Also that on an older boat, you never know what is going to break. I enjoy working on boats. If I were in Mr. Smith''s shoes, I might want to just enjoy the boat. :O)
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  #18  
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Best Keel for Coastal and Blue Water Cruising

While these coversations are very polite they are getting a little dreamy. Money is the major factor and if the price of a particular suitable boat is lower the demand will be there. Only a few people can afford luxury items and these may be more trouble than they are worth.

I still argue that the statement "you never know what will break" applies more to new boats than used boats.

Recently someone on the CWBB expressed an interest in a liveaboard sailboat under $40K and 34'' to 38'' loa. After a discussion the buyer seems to have settled on a Tartan 37 CB (shoal draft is a requirement here). The point of this is that the prices of T 37''s seems to have gone thru the roof! They used to be $45 K now they are $60K. This like the Sabre 34 mentioned I feel there is a sea change in the SIZE of starter boats.

Long ago we used to think our former boat, a C&C 30, was a neat little pocket yacht if you would. It certainly cost us a lot nearly new. Now we see oviously new sailors on new H 37X''s (whatever the #''s are).

We are used to having ice most of the time on our 35'' sloop, running a couple of lights at night and then retiring to bed. The most amps we use daily is in the 9-14 AH range. We eat well when coastal cruising and our food is fresh. But now generators seem to be running all evening in the anchorage.

To each his own but boats like SUV''s seem to be getting bigger all of the time with the 30'' group of sailboats left to drop in value while the bigger boats are in demand.

This reflects on the keel designs as bigger boats have deeper draft.

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Best Keel for Coastal and Blue Water Cruising

Just remember that those deep draft either end up at a dock or anchoring way out there. Smaller boats. shorter rows, less need for electrical thinamajigs
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  #20  
Old 02-11-2001
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Best Keel for Coastal and Blue Water Cruising

A quick comment on Marelon throughulls. I have a 15 year old boat that lives in the water and gets sailed year round. It now has all Marelon through hulls and seacocks. When I bought the boat it had one bronze seacock. I still have all of the Marelon Seacocks and they all work and they have not required any maintenance. The bronze seacock, dispite a lot of maintenance (twice a year lubing, and once every other year disassembly and relapping) leaked on and oof for the whole time it was in the boat and so I replaced it with a Marelon through-hull and seacock.

I am not sure what I would do about through hulls if I was going offshore, but I know that I would not replace a Marelon through-hull and seacock just because it was Marelon.

Jeff
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