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  #11  
Old 07-30-2010
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Sometimes the arrogance of some of this forum's members really makes my day happier and puts a smile on my face.

Sure, Wharram cats, Piver tris and the likes of it are nothing but rubish. I wonder why so many crossed so many oceans so many times. Often faster and safer than their professionally built counterparts...

But I do understand the owners of plastic-fantastic latest generation multi thousand $ boats, after all sailing, let alone cruising, shouldn't be allowed to the masses and those who are anything short of milionairs should be all sailing nothing bigger than toppers and laser dinghies...
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Old 07-30-2010
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Wharram Tiki 36 - here's my thinking.

PRO's: Professionally built, fast, light, easy to single hand, lot's of deck space (where I will spend most of my time), minimalist equipment, separate hulls for eating and sleeping, and did I say fast?

CON's: Admiral will divorce me , marina expense & difficulty,,,umm, that's about it.

For what it's worth, my monohull of choice so far is the RM1060...
(always looking though, every day)
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  #13  
Old 07-30-2010
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Originally Posted by pedcab View Post
Sometimes the arrogance of some of this forum's members really makes my day happier and puts a smile on my face.

Sure, Wharram cats, Piver tris and the likes of it are nothing but rubish. I wonder why so many crossed so many oceans so many times. Often faster and safer than their professionally built counterparts...

But I do understand the owners of plastic-fantastic latest generation multi thousand $ boats, after all sailing, let alone cruising, shouldn't be allowed to the masses and those who are anything short of milionairs should be all sailing nothing bigger than toppers and laser dinghies...
Pedro,
Not so much arrogance as a bit of mischief making. As an owner of a twenty year old steel tank that needs a small gale to get her moving I am throwing stones at my own glasshouse, as in people who live in them shoudn't.

Nemier,
Yessiree bob to the RM1050. A VDS34 for the noughties.
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Old 07-30-2010
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TDW and why are you not at the boat show?????
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Old 07-31-2010
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TDW and why are you not at the boat show?????
Simon,
Had to move the Womboat to her new home today. Going to try and avoid the weekend crowds, heading off to the show on Monday.
You're not in town are you ?
Cheers
Andrew
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Old 08-23-2010
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Jeff, I'm kind of new around here and don't know much about you and your vast sailing experience on all types of sailboats. Did you base your opinion on how Wharrams sail on personal experience sailing a Wharram, or by rumor? How did you come to the conclusion that they don't sail? I personally sailed Boatsmith's Tiki 30 from Miami to Jupiter last year, and we were constantly surfing up to 17 knots. Then we beat up the channel and it pointed ok, with a ballanced helm. After a Worrell 1000, sailing my cruising cat thousands of miles, a Tornado Olympic trials and several other world championships, I base my opinion on catamaran experience. How bout you?
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Old 08-23-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RJSD View Post
Jeff, I'm kind of new around here and don't know much about you and your vast sailing experience on all types of sailboats. Did you base your opinion on how Wharrams sail on personal experience sailing a Wharram, or by rumor? How did you come to the conclusion that they don't sail? I personally sailed Boatsmith's Tiki 30 from Miami to Jupiter last year, and we were constantly surfing up to 17 knots. Then we beat up the channel and it pointed ok, with a ballanced helm. After a Worrell 1000, sailing my cruising cat thousands of miles, a Tornado Olympic trials and several other world championships, I base my opinion on catamaran experience. How bout you?
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  #18  
Old 08-23-2010
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Back in the 1970's and early 1980's there were a number of the Wharrams (and Pivers for that matter) around and passing through Savannah where I lived. I was fascinated by these boats at the time and did everything that I could to get aboard them any chance that I could.

Since someone mentioned Pivers, the Pivers were actually a revelation in that era, especially compared the keel boat designs that I had been sailing. The smaller versions were fast and nimble, the bigger Pivers, not so much. They seemed to have clever layouts that made surprisingly comfortable interiors for the small volumes that they were dealing with.

I was so impressed with Pivers, and with trimarrans in generalm that I bought a small glass trimarran, and later designed and helped build a small plywood tri that was loosely based on the Tremelino but adapted for multichine plywood construction. Of course, a huge amount of development has occurred in the design of trimarrans and monohulls, and so while Pivers were great for their day, there are far superior designs out there today.

By comparison, my experience with the Wharrams was that they offered very poor performance to weather, making large amounts of leeway, could not point close to the wind, did not offer enough speed through the water when cracked off to make up for the lost VMG, were not able to tack reliably in close quarters, and were nearly impossible to tack in light air, and in any wind generally requiring a tacking technique where you turned up into the wind until the boat began moving backwards, kicked over the helm, and then only when turned past a close reach, could the boat be made to move forward on the other tack.

The one boat that I sailed in Hilton Head was reasonably nicely finished and the owner seemed to know her well, but we could not beat out of the river in what should have been near perfect conditions. That was similar to my experience with a smaller Wharram. My sense back then was that the Wharrams were quite fast compared to the boats of that era on a broad reach in moderately high winds, but quite slow on all other points of sail.

I also base my comments on seeing these boats under sail over the years and being able to get a sense of their relative speed as compared to other boats sailing on those days. Of course, in fairness, while I can generally observe sail trim and sail condition, I have no way of knowing how knowledgeable the owner was about how to sail their boat. I found that these boats did seem to respond to comparatively fine adjustments, which sometimes required jury- rigging ways of improving sail shape and so that particular owner my not have been finessing sail trim at all.

At least on the Wharrams that I had experience with, the connection of the Akas to the vakas were a little fragile and problematic over time. In fairness, I understand these have been improved in more recent Wharrams, which these are supposed to move as a part of the design concept, and that arguably you are exchanging a long term maintenance item for a simpler cheaper connection.

I know that experienced Wharram sailors have sailed these boats all over the place. I admire their seamanship, and their luck. But at least based on my experiences, these boats do not provide the kind of broad spectrum well rounded sailing ability that I (or most sailors) would want in a boat that was being taking offshore, or used for coastal cruising. (and are no where near as much fun as the A class cats which I have sailed.)

Respectfully,
Jeff
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Last edited by Jeff_H; 08-23-2010 at 04:13 PM. Reason: Typos galore
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  #19  
Old 08-23-2010
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Wharram cats

I also saw the Tiki 30 built by boatsmith - great job, but expensive at ~$100K.
The main problem with these boats is the lack of interior volume that contributes to the light displacement. The sail OK, but not as fast as newer designs and not as close winded either.
Cheers,
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Old 08-23-2010
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Thanks for the nice comments.
I used to have fin keel racer cruisers. ( J24, Santana 525, Santana35, Ross 930) I started racing in SoCal when there would be 6-8 sleds out for a LBYC wet Wednesday. I was a little concerned about building a Wharram for myself as I really like to sail and sailing fast is more fun. I saw my first Wharram about 30 years ago at the isthmus in Catalina after racing over on a 60' custom ultralight. I went ,wow, that's cool and they ridiculed me. None of them had ever sailed one and probably haven't to this day.
I have really been pleased with the sailing performance of our Tiki 30. The mini keels keep windward performance acceptable and the reaching and running has be exhilarating. Blasting along in the low teens in less than 3' of gin clear water is totally cool fun. If I try to pinch it up the speed will drop off quickly and the leeway will increase.
We have several thousand miles on our Tiki 30 over the last 2 years and have truly been very favorably impressed.
I am James Wharram Designs US builder. We have built several of his boats now. I don't agree with all of his ideas but really like a lot of them.
The Tiki 30 is one of Wharram's best sailing designs. He does refer to it as a backpacking boat. It also is a 30' sailboat that has a cockpit that seats 10 easily. It also is a very comfortable seagoing boat that will fit onto a trailer or into a container and be transported anywhere in the world cheaply.
The Tiki 36 is the result of having sailed the Tiki 30 and having showed it at several major boat shows and trying to fill a need. We have stretched the boat for more waterline, raised the sheer for more bridge deck clearance and more internal volume, increased the beam for more stability with more sail area and given her a modern full batten big roach main.
This is in no way intended to be a condomaran. If you just want a cottage at the marina look elsewhere. This is a boat that takes the great fun of a beach catamaran and provides a larger platform for cruising and having fun at a very reasonable price. I would be happy to provide anybody with more information on this or any of our boats. We are custom boatbuilders and will build almost any boat for almost anybody.
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