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  #311  
Old 04-07-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
... Where are those destinations in relation to the prevailing wind patterns at that time? Downwind.

Thereafter, many just hire delivery skippers to bring their boats back up and deal with all the upwind discomfort everyone's complaining about. They don't typically deal with it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by puddinlegs View Post
smack, you're talking about the top end crowd with the delivery skippers and crews. Most sail their boats back uphill as well. Look up Latitude 38 and 'Baha Bash'.
As a delivery skipper I think I can speak to this. My client base is very mid-market. They hire skippers for a number of reasons: someone is sick, they don't like offshore passages, or they have schedule limitations. A number just want someone with experience on board to mentor them for subsequent trips on their own.

I don't actually see many people offshore in either direction on the US East Coast. Most are driving the ICW and crossing the Gulf Stream from Florida to the Bahamas. Some are inlet hopping. Only a few really push offshore. Heck, there is a lot to be said for the Thorny Path and all the sights to see given enough time and flexibility. It's folks who still are working who want their boat in the Bahamas or Eastern Caribbean for the season while they fly in and out.
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  #312  
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smack

whoa , dude , you need to start reading some books, pal you are lost
you are not getting anything out of this,
Crying to the mods ,,,,,, get real ,, you know nothing

the one guy who has the patience to tell you what is going on is keelhaulin. and unfortunately you have the arrogance to tell your tale above his words
Both you and paulo ARE LOST and are babes in the woods

GOOD LUCK AND GOOD BY I have no patience for your kind
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  #313  
Old 04-07-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevlarpirate View Post
smack

whoa , dude , you need to start reading some books, pal you are lost
you are not getting anything out of this,
Crying to the mods ,,,,,, get real ,, you know nothing

the one guy who has the patience to tell you what is going on is keelhaulin. and unfortunately you have the arrogance to tell your tale above his words
Both you and paulo ARE LOST and are babes in the woods

GOOD LUCK AND GOOD BY I have no patience for your kind
Heh-heh. I am reading books! Everything I can get my hands on!

Don't get tizzied, KEV. I wouldn't say I'm/we're "lost", I just don't easily and fully buy the old "party line" regarding "cruising" boat design.

Look, seriously, what do you want me to say to you and Keel, Kev? "You're right, simply because you say it's so."? And if I don't I'm "arrogant"? Meh.

All I'm saying is that there is a very compelling reason (many of them) that companies aren't churning out Newport 41 designs anymore. True, you can still buy a brand new 2011 Tartan, Hinckley, etc. that fits that bill. But many of the newer production boats are undoubtedly incorporating the newer/faster hulls. And this is where the market is.

Surely that's got to tell you something, right? Yes - I know you call it all "hype" - but there's something more to it than that. And maybe that's just that cruising is changing. It no longer fits your definition. I think Ausp's post above underscores this.

Or maybe all these modern yacht builders and buyers are lost babes in the woods too?

PCP - Here's that vid you were talking about above:

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Last edited by smackdaddy; 04-07-2011 at 07:49 PM.
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  #314  
Old 04-07-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevlarpirate View Post
smack

whoa , dude , you need to start reading some books, pal you are lost
you are not getting anything out of this,
Crying to the mods ,,,,,, get real ,, you know nothing

the one guy who has the patience to tell you what is going on is keelhaulin. and unfortunately you have the arrogance to tell your tale above his words
Both you and paulo ARE LOST and are babes in the woods

GOOD LUCK AND GOOD BY I have no patience for your kind
Now this one is out of line. Smack asks a lot of questions because he's on a small lake and genuinely curious about other's experiences. I say keep asking, and you'll get there. One thing I know for sure is that there's no finite limit on what you can learn and experience in both life and sailing.
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  #315  
Old 04-08-2011
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smack, you need to read more before and view these posts less seriously.
If there is one guy who is blinded and pushing his goods it is paulo.
I take things for granted yes, I have been out there for 40 years, and i have the physics background to explain my observations, the one other guy here who does that and explains it better than me is keel, you should re read all his posts, they all make perfect sense.

as for the video , what is special about it , the boat is reefed down and in control, likely short handed. if they were a sport boat they would be in the same mode. only bounced around a lot more
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  #316  
Old 04-08-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
...
All I'm saying is that there is a very compelling reason (many of them) that companies aren't churning out Newport 41 designs anymore. True, you can still buy a brand new 2011 Tartan, Hinckley, etc. that fits that bill. But many of the newer production boats are undoubtedly incorporating the newer/faster hulls. And this is where the market is.
Smack they fit the bill, I mean the kind of program Kev and and KH are talking about but their hull design and their weight has nothing to do with 40 year old designs. Two of my favorite cruisers that fit that bill (that is not mine) are the Malo and the Southerly.

If you look at a 40 year's old Malo you will see that it is a full keel boat, the modern one has a fin bulbed keel and that the hull is completely different.

Regarding those two, they were the choices of two of the most knowledgeable cruisers on the planet, kind of guys that sail a lot all around the world. But that does not means that are not the only types for that program, there is another well known globetrotter that had chose an Ovni, another totally different kind of boat. These are all different kind of cruising boats to a sailing program that has many points in common.

Those sailors are all Americans and they all had once full keeled boats that they have changed for modern boats and they all say that the new boats offer many advantages over their old boats. I guess they know what they are talking about

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
PCP - Here's that vid you were talking about above:


Yes, Thanks for posting it. As kev says "the boat is reefed down and in control, likely short handed" and he is right. This is the best you can do on an old kind of hull.

You will have this constant kind of rolling that can be a amplified if in synchronism with the wave movement to a knock down as almost happens on the movie. The boat is much slower than the waves and these hit the boat from behind with speed increasing difficulties in controlling the boat.

You cannot have this boat on autopilot on these circumstances, you need to have an experienced hand at the Wheel to counteract the continuous rolling.

One of the reasons why modern designed boats, even when they are not the type of boats directly derived from Open designs, have large transoms is to prevent that rolling.

Also, if they are performance boats, they will plane downwind much faster than the speed of a displacement hull and therefore they will sail not very far from the speed of the waves and that makes them a lot less dangerous because the waves reach the boat almost with no power (almost same speed).

You can see on these movies that modern boats don't roll, they are steady and the wheels-man is having little trouble to control the boat. If adequately balanced and with the right speed they can even be left on autopilot.

Some of the movies are of racing boats (that's what I find on the net) but that's just the same principle and the same kind of hull, they are just pushed harder. If they went some 3 or 4 K slower they would even be a lot easier to control, and as you can see, even pushed that control is not difficult. Not any risk of a knock out as on the movie you have posted.

YouTube - Delivery

YouTube - Sailing Offshore in Class 40 Solo

YouTube - Rough Weather - Corentin Douguet Sailing crazy Figaro

Now, between modern performance boats take a look at the differences between the boats that are designed taking as reference the Open solo class boats and the boats that take as reference more classic racing classes (ORC, IMS, IRC).

Modern traditional racing boats:


YouTube - J111 at speed

YouTube - fast Sailing in 30 kts +

YouTube - Archambault 35 Skagen Race 2009 Dagny Sailing and Surfing

Open boats tradition:

YouTube - Pogo 2 NED633 Fast Downwind

YouTube - Akilaria Class 40 - Xmas regatta 2010 - Split, Croatia

YouTube - Le bongo de régional en entrainement

YouTube - Surfin Bird 2


You can see that for planning fast downwind the guys with Open type boats can go with short crew (or solo) and they don't need to make a lot of trimming on the sails. Sometimes they are on auto pilot while they go to the deck for adjusting the front sail. On the other kind of boats its different you need a good hand at the wheel and a good hand at the sails. More skill is needed and also a bigger crew.

That's why Open derived class boats are popular as cruising boats for guys that like to go fast and have fun as an important part of their cruising program : they are easy and more forgiving. With them you can go fast without a crew and without being an expert, just an experienced sailor

I hope this helps. I have yet a lot to learn and I love to learn, but I have learned already one or two things about boat design and performance and I like to share it. It make no sense to think that the best Naval Architects have done nothing right on the past 40 years. I just try to understand why they design the boats the way they do, assuming they know a lot more about that than I do.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 04-09-2011 at 05:53 AM. Reason: movie posted two times on this post
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  #317  
Old 04-08-2011
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Back to the threads intent

I've been following this thread with great interrest, however it seems the thread has been renamed to "An ocean racer that might or might not fall apart."
I think the OP had in mind discussing real blue water cruisers, and their ability to sail in light air.
Paolo keeps bringing up racing sleds, that most cruisers would not dare to take around the world. I also read, that these sleds are built so well, they will withstand any conditions, including hitting the occasional shipping container. Factcheck: Of the 31 boats that started at the 2008/09 Vendee Globe, only 11 finished, the rest lost keels, rudders, got dismasted etc. Looks like about 65% failure rate.... Anyone here ready to slip the lines with your family on board under these odds??
The only reason these boats are used is to be as fast as possible and win the race. In order to win the race many chances are taken that don't make sense for full time cruisers.
How about getting back to real blue water cruisers that make sense?
The speed diagram of a HR 40 looks pretty tolerable, and your chances of survival are better than 35%.....
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  #318  
Old 04-08-2011
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Quote:
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I think the OP had in mind discussing real blue water cruisers, and their ability to sail in light air.
Good point.

My Frers designed HR does nicely in light to very light air but takes some real attention.

So did the 25 year old Swan 47 I delivered earlier this year. Well offshore and low on fuel with four aboard we had one guy who could get the boat moving on a zephyr (not the most experienced on board and not me), two of us that could keep the boat moving in 3-5 kts, and one guy who could stop the boat dead even if the wind picked up over 5.

I think the sailor is more important than the boat.
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  #319  
Old 04-08-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjung View Post
I've been following this thread with great interrest, however it seems the thread has been renamed to "An ocean racer that might or might not fall apart."
I think the OP had in mind discussing real blue water cruisers, and their ability to sail in light air.
Paolo keeps bringing up racing sleds, that most cruisers would not dare to take around the world. ....
The only reason these boats are used is to be as fast as possible and win the race. In order to win the race many chances are taken that don't make sense for full time cruisers.
How about getting back to real blue water cruisers that make sense?
The speed diagram of a HR 40 looks pretty tolerable, and your chances of survival are better than 35%.....
I was talking about basic contemporary boat design principles. There are boats designed to cruise around the word under those principles, I mean the ones that take as a model Open solo racers. There is at least on member of this forum that ones one and that have said that the boat fulfills completely the cruising criteria that was in the base of its design program:Comfortable long range cruising at fast speed.

There are several boats built to do that but I am referring specifically to the Cigale:













Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 04-08-2011 at 09:20 AM.
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  #320  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
Good point.

My Frers designed HR does nicely in light to very light air but takes some real attention.

So did the 25 year old Swan 47 I delivered earlier this year. Well offshore and low on fuel with four aboard we had one guy who could get the boat moving on a zephyr (not the most experienced on board and not me), two of us that could keep the boat moving in 3-5 kts, and one guy who could stop the boat dead even if the wind picked up over 5.

I think the sailor is more important than the boat.
Exactly!!!

Last edited by puddinlegs; 04-08-2011 at 10:57 AM.
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