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  #31  
Old 09-17-2010
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Hi, if you intend to really go blue water, may I respectfully suggest light air performance should be secondary, it is bumpy , heavy weather you need to consider. having done a lot of blue water sailing , including a trip from Japan to Dutch harbour in a 38 footer, I would much rather have something that is slow in light air but can handle heavier conditions. In 25,000 miles , I averaged 5.3 knots, you are not going to make much difference to your average speed with a better light air performer but you will feel a lot safer and more comfortable when the wind gets up and you are in the middle of nowhere. I have been caught in some terrible scary stuff, but overtime actually realised the boat ( Robert Tucker 38) handled the weather better than I did. Light air can be frustrating, sails up, sails down, engine on , engine off, engine on , etc but if you do not have a tight time table, consider whether it mateers whether you arrive a day or two later at your destinations. Even after years of cruising, mexico, pacific, australia, PNG , Alaska leaving the harbour and heading straight out still fills me with a good deal of fear !!! Get a solid good yacht under your feet and after a while the worry reduces as you become more confident with the yachts capabilities.
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  #32  
Old 01-26-2011
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Thank you all for your thoughtful comments. They were helpful, and I enjoyed looking up all the fine boats. In the end, myself and a partner bought a 1966 Allied Luders 33. I'll probably do some paddling in the light airs, but she sure is pretty and seems very able. I'm excited to be out on the water this season. Cheers.
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  #33  
Old 01-27-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by casioqv View Post
Westsail 32! I've heard they go great in light winds.... with the diesel engine
Actually the Westsail does OK in light wind. Two weeks or so ago I went sailing in ~8kts of wind and managed 4.5 kts boat speed. This with just the main and Yankee up..

YouTube - Sunday sail
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  #34  
Old 01-27-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williamkiester View Post
Thank you all for your thoughtful comments. They were helpful, and I enjoyed looking up all the fine boats. In the end, myself and a partner bought a 1966 Allied Luders 33. I'll probably do some paddling in the light airs, but she sure is pretty and seems very able. I'm excited to be out on the water this season. Cheers.
If you bought the Luders 33 that I'm thinking about, on the Chesapeake Bay, you got a good one!
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  #35  
Old 01-27-2011
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The efficacy of 'light wind' sailing is mostly dependent on the SKILL of the helmsman and the accuracy of how the sails are carefully SHAPED, etc. ( the sails not 'just raised' but carefully 'shaped' after raising).
The use of a full set of tell tales and a developed knowledge of 'how' to use them, a knowledge of what/which sail SHAPE to use and how to attain such shape by precise adjustment of the halyard, outhaul, cunningham, etc. etc. etc. are vitally important on 'any' boat to make it go in light winds.

Also - The condition of the underwater surfaces also play a role in effective light weight sailing - SMOOTH (and 'clean') bottom paint, feathering or folding prop, faired through-hull 'protuberances' etc. etc.

If you want a boat that will perform well in 'light' conditions - choose one that has the minimum of underwater surface area, typically a fin keel + spade rudder, a 'modern' light weight boat - for better 'acceleration', LARGE sail plan, and loooong waterline length.

:-)
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  #36  
Old 01-27-2011
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You know that Luders hull speed is about 6.5 knots because she has about 9 feet of overhangs so about 24 feet at waterline. Jeffs Farr 38 is bigger,lighter, larger sail area and longer on the waterline. His hullspeed is about 7.5 knots. So if they both did hull speed for 10 hours the Luders is only 10 nautical miles back or 24 for a full 24 hour sail.
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  #37  
Old 01-28-2011
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Ah so, but the reality is that hull speed says little about how fast a boat actually goes. The real predictor of passage times is the amount of time that a boat spend near, at or above its hullspeed. In my experience, it is very hard to get a Luders to sail anywhere near her hullspeed since they have such limited stability relative to their drag. Even sailing them with the 170% genoas that they were designed to use, they never were able to maintain their hullspeed even in moderate breezes. By comparason, in cruising mode, upwind, in 8 knots (true, 13 knots apparent) wind, the Farr 38 is often at her hullspeed or doing slightly more than her hullspeed, while my experience with the Luders 33 is that they rarely do their hullspeed. Actually, the Farr 38 and Luders 33 have the same design weight, but the Luders 33 sails on a 24 foot waterline and the Farr on a 32 foot waterline.

The reality is if both boats sailed from Annapolis to St. Michaels in 10 knots of wind, there would be a mix of beating, reaching and running and (from actual experience) it would take the Farr roughly 4 1/2- 5 hours and the Luders something over 8 hours.

In a more general sense, I find this thread very interesting, in part, because its opening premise was that the original poster started out wanting a boat that was a good single-hander and light air boat that was also a good offshore boat, starting out with a list of boats which had none of these characteristics (with the possible exception of the Cape Dory 28 which arguably is a decent offshore boat). It seems as if the original poster evaluated a number of options before deciding that neither offshore or light air ability was all that important and so chose an older racer/cruiser.

I don't mean this a critique, but more as an observation. All to often people come on these forums exploring a range of ideas. For many, it is a process of self-discovery. Some discover that there are a range of ideas that appeal to them and so may end up in a very different place than where they started, while others learn that they genuniely knew themselves at the start of their explorations and like this poster, end up exactly where they began, albeit sometimes for completely different reasons.

Before I leave this discussion, I do not want to leave the impression that I think that the original poster bought the wrong boat. I don't think he did. There is almost no such thing as the universally wrong boat. Obviously, this boat appeals to the OP and his "partner in crime" and that is what makes it right for them.

The main point of this post is that when I look at the specific choice of boat that the OP sellected, it does not come even close to matching the criteria that the OP described in his written goals; good light air capabilities, good offshore cruiser, easy to single-hand, protected rudder, or even a full keel. This boat offers none of that, but the good news is that the OP and his partner in crime are happy with what they bought and that is all that really matters.

Jeff
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Last edited by Jeff_H; 01-28-2011 at 08:08 AM.
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  #38  
Old 01-28-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevandraper View Post
Hi, if you intend to really go blue water, may I respectfully suggest light air performance should be secondary, it is bumpy , heavy weather you need to consider. having done a lot of blue water sailing , including a trip from Japan to Dutch harbour in a 38 footer, I would much rather have something that is slow in light air but can handle heavier conditions. In 25,000 miles , I averaged 5.3 knots, you are not going to make much difference to your average speed with a better light air performer but you will feel a lot safer and more comfortable when the wind gets up and you are in the middle of nowhere. I have been caught in some terrible scary stuff, but overtime actually realised the boat ( Robert Tucker 38) handled the weather better than I did. Light air can be frustrating, sails up, sails down, engine on , engine off, engine on , etc but if you do not have a tight time table, consider whether it mateers whether you arrive a day or two later at your destinations. Even after years of cruising, mexico, pacific, australia, PNG , Alaska leaving the harbour and heading straight out still fills me with a good deal of fear !!! Get a solid good yacht under your feet and after a while the worry reduces as you become more confident with the yachts capabilities.
This is one of the best brief posts on bluewater sailing that I have ever seen..I would not know if it is true from personal experience but for me it is the best bluewater-topic post I have ever read as it seems very genuine and humble while also being descriptive and helpful to the uninitiated. That's my take on things this watch and weatherset and I am sticking to it...
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  #39  
Old 01-29-2011
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Yes, this is interesting. When I read Souljour2000's reply, I felt he/she seemed to miss the point. Light Air performance is extremely important to me in order to keep the boat moving, and not have to use the engine in the first palce.. The engine 'on' then 'off' cycle would seriously affect my sailing experience. My next vessel must be able to keep moving in the lightest airs.

Of course I would want to know that the vessel can handle storm force wx, but from my experience, and from what I've been researching, that is the exeption, not the norm. Obviously, you would plan your passage in a suitable season, and bin any thought of a 'schedule'.

So for me, light air peformance is still a priority.
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  #40  
Old 01-29-2011
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As posted above the sails are important as is the boat. A light drifter and a light nylon mainsail are easier to keep full in light air than dacron sails. Several owners of Nor'Sea 27s have found this to be true to maximize light air sailing and minimize engine running.
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