A blue water sailer that can go in light winds - Page 46 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree11Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #451  
Old 04-14-2011
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,191
Thanks: 21
Thanked 100 Times in 83 Posts
Rep Power: 11
PCP will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Hell yeah it is! And it's also to joke with each other a bit. Why, haven't you picked on various issues illustrated within the various photographs of the world renown S/V Smacktanic?

You have to reflect on why the N41 became the representative boat for "blue water sailers" in the first place...just like a VO70 suddenly became to representative cruising choice of the blinded-hype-suckers.

So, I say we all agree that the new Bene First 50 is THE boat for seriously fun cruising in style - and lock the thread. Heh-heh.
Nah! the 50 is just an overkill. The First 45 has almost the same interior is not much slower and costs a lot less. Tell you what, you keep the 50 and I will keep the 45...if I can find someone that sells it to me for less 80 000€ than what they ask for it It is a lot of boat for the money, but even so, above my budget

First 45 / First / Sailing Yachts / Accueil - BENETEAU - Sailboats and motorboats - Official Website

First 45 / First / Sailing Yachts / Accueil - BENETEAU - Sailboats and motorboats - Official Website

First 45 / First / Sailing Yachts / Accueil - BENETEAU - Sailboats and motorboats - Official Website

But there are some other similar boats just a bit more expensive that are as beautiful and good and I would say that I would even prefer this one over the First 45, even considering price:

Video - Salona Yachts

http://www.salonayachts.com/document...ld-06-2010.pdf

Gallery - Salona Yachts

Well, if you have more money you could just try this one. It is not worse :

Dehler Yachts

also this one:

http://www.arconayachts.com/tests/43...30_Test_YM.pdf

Arcona Yachts UK

this one:

Grand Soleil - Cantiere del Pardo

And my absolute favorite, the one I would own if I had no budget limitations:

- LUFFE YACHTS -

All these boats are fast blue water boats with excellent light wind performance, excellent upwind and very good downwind and mix style comfort and speed. Kind of perfect cruisers in what regards my idea of cruising and the pleasure that is associated.

Tell me which are you going to have and invite me for a test sail

Regards

Paulo





Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 04-15-2011 at 07:25 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #452  
Old 04-14-2011
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,191
Thanks: 21
Thanked 100 Times in 83 Posts
Rep Power: 11
PCP will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdw View Post
A bit of a PS to my last post .. quite frankly (and I don't care who says it or on what forum) I find the term 'old shoe' offensive. Please remember however that when a certain Portaloo once of this borough first used the remark it most certainly did not include designs like KeelHaulin's simply because they were a few years old and less than cutting edge under water.

Personal abuse comes in many forms but there is little that is worse than insulting someone else's boat. Criticising or debating the pros and cons is one thing, outright abuse is another. Even when said in a jocular fashion there comes a point where the joke wears thin.
I agree with you about the term "old shoe" being offensive and I never have used it referring to old designs or boats. Fact is that I really love classical boats and in the "interesting sailing thread" there are some posts about them, meaning I find them interesting even if out of my budget (I mean if they are just new copies of older designs or if they are really classical boats with a total refit to bring them to the new condition again).

If price was not a factor I would seriously consider having one of those beauties, specially the ones with modern hull and overall classical design.

But I found another form of offense as annoying as the one you refer that is insulting someone implying that he don't know what is saying because he has no experience, without having the slightest idea if that person has experience or not.

I have being called many times in this thread "an armchair sailor" and someone has implied that what I know about sailing was what I have learned in the lessons needed to have licences for sailing in my country (and that is obviously in what concerns real experience next to nothing). This is not nice, and it is in my opinion even worse than to voice a negative opinion about someone's boat (that can even be true to that person and to the vast majority) because this is a lot more objective.

I have certainly not as much experience as some in this forum and I don't consider myself very experienced but I would say that I am certainly not an armchair sailor and my experience in heavy and light boats and technical knowledge is certainly enough to have an informed opinion about sailboats.

Regarding my experience I never counted nautical miles and most of the time I have sailed with the log off (out of service) going by the GPS and many times without log or GPS. I have said that I had made more than 5000 nm on the last 10 years and that's true but quite an understatement. That's because I really never thought about it (and I don't care) but now that some have questioned my experience I had a look at it:

My last boat had on its engine when I sold it 2400 hours. If 200 hours where for charging batteries or going slowly, about 2200 hours where used for cruising, sailing and motor-sailing. I never cruise or motor-sail under 6K and that means 13 200nm. If I consider (very conservatively) that I have sailed (without engine) 1/3 of those hours at 6K (when cruising to far away places, that is most of the time I motor sail if I am doing less than 5/5.5K) I will had more 4 400 nm. This is only what I have sailed in 9 years. I had own another boat for almost 10 years and I have no idea of the miles done, but certainly several thousands and I am not counting the miles done in charted boats and fried's boats. I am quite sure that I would have to add more some thousands (many of them made in an heavy two mast 18m steel sailboat).

All in all, now that I have looked at it, it should be well over 20 000nm, many of them solo sailing. Funny that I had no idea

I still don't consider myself a very experienced sailor but I know that I am many times the only sail in the horizon in places that have the biggest concentration of sailboats on the planet and that means that I have some experience

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 04-14-2011 at 06:46 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #453  
Old 04-14-2011
JomsViking's Avatar
Splashed
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 554
Thanks: 28
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Rep Power: 8
JomsViking is on a distinguished road
Obviously an armchair sailor


I felt You were being too modest previously, and found it offensive too (not you being modest but the term armchair sailor - not least when it was obvious to me that you had to have at least some experience).


Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I agree with you about the term "old shoe" being offensive and I never have used it referring to old designs or boats. Fact is that I really love classical boats and in the "interesting sailing thread" there are some posts about them, meaning I find them interesting even if out of my budget (I mean if they are just new copies of older designs or if they are really classical boats with a total refit to bring them to the new condition again).

If price was not a factor I would seriously consider having one of those beauties, specially the ones with modern hull and overall classical design.

But I found another form of offense as annoying as the one you refer that is insulting someone implying that he don't know what is saying because he has no experience, without having the slightest idea if that person has experience or not.

I have being called many times in this thread "an armchair sailor" and someone has implied that what I know about sailing was what I have learned in the lessons needed to have licences for sailing in my country (and that is obviously in what concerns real experience next to nothing). This is not nice, and it is in my opinion even worse than to voice a negative opinion about someone's boat (that can even be true to that person and to the vast majority) because this is a lot more objective.

I have certainly not as much experience as some in this forum and I don't consider myself very experienced but I would say that I am certainly not an armchair sailor and my experience in heavy and light boats and technical knowledge is certainly enough to have an informed opinion about sailboats.

Regarding my experience I never counted nautical miles and most of the time I have sailed with the log off (out of service) going by the GPS and many times without log or GPS. I have said that I had made more than 5000 nm on the last 10 years and that's true but quite an understatement. That's because I really never thought about it (and I don't care) but now that some have questioned my experience I had a look at it:

My last boat had on its engine when I sold it 2400 hours. If 200 hours where for charging batteries or going slowly, about 2200 hours where used for cruising, sailing and motor-sailing. I never cruise or motor-sail under 6K and that means 13 200nm. If I consider (very conservatively) that I have sailed (without engine) 1/3 of those hours at 6K (when cruising to far away places, that is most of the time I motor sail if I am doing less than 5/5.5K) I will had more 4 400 nm. This is only what I have sailed in 9 years. I had own another boat for almost 10 years and I have no idea of the miles done, but certainly several thousands and I am not counting the miles done in charted boats and fried's boats. I am quite sure that I would have to add more some thousands (many of them made in an heavy two mast 18m steel sailboat).

All in all, now that I have looked at it, it should be well over 20 000nm, many of them solo sailing. Funny that I had no idea

I still don't consider myself a very experienced sailor but I know that I am many times the only sail in the horizon in places that have the biggest concentration of sailboats on the planet and that means that I have some experience

Regards

Paulo
__________________
Watch great footage about the story of one manís slow odyssey around the UK:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #454  
Old 04-14-2011
JomsViking's Avatar
Splashed
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 554
Thanks: 28
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Rep Power: 8
JomsViking is on a distinguished road
Keel,

I specifically did not mention any names, trying NOT to offend anyone, but I guess that the quote "If you throw a stone into a pack of dogs, the one that barks, is the one that got hit!" is true then
(Sorry I just couldn't help it, being called ridiculous apparently brings out the sarcasm in me - I owe you a beer or two )

Funny thing is I like the Ericsson, and think that Simon chose a great boat for his intended cruising - I even sail an early IOR boat myself (albeit modified), and have cruised the Atlantic in high(ish) as well as low latitudes in old and new boats so - like Paulo - I have a little experience, not least some heavy weather experience in the North Atlantic.
Using the J-boat example is just not going to help your case - but actually detract from it, as another recent post has shown

Hey, and I hope we can all still be friends - Peace and Love and all that? You're always welcome at my home (then we can agree to disagree over a few beers)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
You know; it's kinda rediculous to enter an argument and try and give a re-cap when you could not read the thread well enough to know who is talking about what. I never referred to 20kts as "heavy weather". I said that winds up above 20-25 are getting to the point where you will want to prepare for HEAVIER wind and waves. Don't believe me? Do some searching for last weekend's Farallones Race here out of SF. A J-105 snapped it's rudder tube in the heavy swell (and in winds that were only APPROACHING 30 kts). That was a COASTAL event here. Wanna talk about offshore conditions here to someone who went out in 30-40kt winds? Go ask SimonV on this forum. The guy was taking green showers for 3 days in an offshore gale. I don't know if the J-105 would have survived it (considering the rudder tube failure); but his Ericson 39 exited unscathed (nice choice of cruising boat BTW).

I put up that Chlorox bottle post as a retort to a post that WAS ALREADY MADE disrespecting my Newport 41 and older boats in general. IF YOU CANT TAKE THE HEAT THEN DONT PUT UP DISRESPECTFUL POSTS THAT WILL GET THE SAME IN RETURN. What's my HONEST impression of the Newport 41? Go back, re-read what I have written. It's not gonna win races in light air and it's definitely not a sport boat by todays standards. BUT; it is a GREAT racer/cruiser that can still win races in the right conditions and has EXCELLENT OFFSHORE PROPERTIES BOTH UPWIND AND DOWNWIND.



OR; remember the saying "a fool and his money are easily separated"? Why pay more when you don't NEED to? My basis for the comparisons was the FACT that he called my boat obsolete; when he himself is sailing something that only "rates" slightly higher in terns of raw performance; and arguably is not as good looking!

Let's talk numbers Paulo. Recall that I said earlier that the Newport 41 won it's division on elapsed time in the '98 Vic-Maui. IT ALSO DID WAY MORE THAN THAT. It came in 5'TH OVERALL ON ELAPSED TIME (4'th overall on corrected time). It was only beaten by a SC-50, Andrews-70, S&S-57, and an IMX-38. It 'passed' all of the Class C fleet, and 3 boats in the Class B fleet in elapsed time, not corrected. The lowest rated boat it beat was a boat that had a base rating of 38. If that rating was bogus; it also stayed ahead of boats that had ratings of 76, 83, and 5 boats with ratings in the mid to high 90's. BOATS THAT HAVE RATINGS OF ONLY 6s/mi DIFFERENT ARE NOT SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT IN THEIR SPEEDS.

Go back, and re-read what I said about how my boat compares to the most modern go-fast racer/cruiser boats. I did not say it was as fast. I said that it is not much slower in downwind or upwind VMG in conditions below 20kts. 20kts and below BTW, are windspeeds that most sailors 'cruise' in.
__________________
Watch great footage about the story of one manís slow odyssey around the UK:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #455  
Old 04-14-2011
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,191
Thanks: 21
Thanked 100 Times in 83 Posts
Rep Power: 11
PCP will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by JomsViking View Post
Obviously an armchair sailor


I felt You were being too modest previously, and found it offensive too (not you being modest but the term armchair sailor - not least when it was obvious to me that you had to have at least some experience).
Sorry, obviously I misunderstood your intentions regarding what you have said. I believe you really thought that in Portugal the qualifications and licences implied any appreciable sea experience. I have the highest that permits me to take any non commercial vessel of any size to anywhere but if on the theoretical side (rules, regulations, safety, procedures, navigation, use of radar, Sextant and other instruments) they are quite demanding on the practical side and regarding sailboat sea experience it is near to zero.

To my knowledge only the British take that seriously on the RYA licences even if I heard them complaining that they have become too easy and not really fit for what they pretend to accomplish. And as you know they have these courses but they don't legally need them to sail away with an inapropriate boat and it's soon school Atlas (we have rescued one of those some years back ).

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 04-14-2011 at 10:17 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #456  
Old 04-15-2011
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 120
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 9
kevlarpirate is on a distinguished road
smack

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevlarpirate
You need to read more and listen to technical sailors

you ask: Where can I find these?

Duh , you must be kidding, but instead of listening and learning
you prefer to argue from the sidelines... good luck
___
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #457  
Old 04-15-2011
just ducky
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: NH
Posts: 952
Thanks: 4
Thanked 21 Times in 20 Posts
Rep Power: 7
Don0190 is on a distinguished road
talk about a thread that has drifted way off the title topic that I clicked on to read about!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #458  
Old 04-15-2011
tomperanteau's Avatar
Crotchety Old Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: San Pedro Harbor, California
Posts: 844
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 6
tomperanteau is on a distinguished road
So, how about those blue water boats?
__________________
Capt'n Tom Living Aboard 50/50

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Footprints

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Youtube

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


1969 Crealock/Columbia 36 Sloop completely refitted in 2000 and new Yanmar in 2006.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #459  
Old 04-15-2011
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,370
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 9
puddinlegs is on a distinguished road
Well, I have to say it, I thought this was a more civil and adult place, but the lack of moderation is telling. Sailnet users, see you all later. I check into cruising anarchy from time to time if anyone wants to contact me. Cheers all!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #460  
Old 04-15-2011
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 13,537
Thanks: 98
Thanked 98 Times in 92 Posts
Rep Power: 9
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Well...I'm glad to see we finally got this all sorted out.

PCP - okay, I'll spot you the 5'. You're right anyway - Fitty's a bit much.

As for most of the other boats you mention - nice, but I'm not into teak decks. And although I really like the Grand Soleil the most of the bunch - I honestly would not know the significant differences between these and a Bene F45 without some significant research. And I'm sure the differences would have to be pretty significant to warrant the price difference in my significant mind.

Puddin - dude, bummer to see you go. You're actually one of those experienced sailors these whinging mooks were yearning for earlier in this thread. I have to disagree with you though on the moderation. The thing I like about SN is that it's allowed to go a bit more toward SA (unlike CF) as long as it doesn't get too nuclear. Gives it a bit of an edge. In that regard, I think the mods do a great job of balancing everything...even giving really irritating people a voice...and enough rope to hang themselves! See you at CA.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40

Last edited by smackdaddy; 04-15-2011 at 06:56 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Keeping Water Sweet paul323 Gear & Maintenance 56 04-23-2011 01:35 PM
Boat speed vs Boat length in light winds Daveinet General Discussion (sailing related) 5 08-22-2010 09:47 PM
Blue water skipper and crew ScottUK Boat Review and Purchase Forum 11 08-05-2010 05:11 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:27 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.