A blue water sailer that can go in light winds - Page 48 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree11Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #471  
Old 04-17-2011
blt2ski's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,653
Thanks: 0
Thanked 18 Times in 17 Posts
Rep Power: 10
blt2ski will become famous soon enough
So now you are comparing a 30' boat to a 41'r?!?!?! lets make it even, compare my boat at 159 actually, to a newport 30 in the 190 range! 30 secs a mile faster, interior is just as nice etc. Reality is, I am probably more like a Newport 28 in size, so add another 10 secs a mile to how much quicker I am.

It is frankly NOT worth comparing different sized boats. As the bigger ones SHOULD be faster. I also never claimed, nor would I claim you N41 to be faster than my Jeanneau. Which has gone across and is DESIGNED to go across oceans with the at the time European ocean level cert. I would guess that an N30 does not have that.

As I said earlier, some are willing to look at other options, some are so bent on there way is right, no one else is right, even if they agree on some items. Nor do I recall throwing stones at the N41, you are throwing them for ALL of us.
__________________
She drives me boat,
I drives me dinghy!
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #472  
Old 04-17-2011
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,160
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
It's not that gang. Never said that I oppose racers going out and crossing oceans in the 'open' class hulls. But I heard something said by a guy who knows one hell of a lot more than I do about boats; Brion Toss this afternoon at a Strictly Sail seminar. He said: "racing sailing is incompatible with good seamanship practices".
And he is right! Racing sailors push their boats to the limit, take risks that would be looked as foolish regarding what a cruising sailor would call “good seamanship practices”. Cruising sailors would always aim to a much bigger safety threshold. A good cruising sailor would not push its boat to the limit. That would not be a good seamanship practice in what regards cruising.

But this has nothing to do with types of boats. Racing is done in all kinds of boats and it seems that also in the Newport 41. This is true for the Newport or true to any other kind of sailboat, regarding racing and cruising. What is acceptable while racing it is not many times acceptable or regarded as good seamanship practice while cruising.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
This is the point I am trying to get across to those who think a racing boat can have an interior dropped in it and become an ocean crossing cruiser. The boats that race cross ocean were built in a 'to the limit of strength' and do not have much (if any) safety factor designed into their construction.
This makes no sense. I mean you seem to think that a purposed built ocean racer is more fragile than a cruising boat and that they have a lower safety limit and it is just the opposite.

Ocean racers are built to resist not only those prudent cruising seamanship practices but to be abused over it and to be pushed 100% including over storms where any cruising sailor would have taken survival and comfort tactics. The efforts that these boats where designed to resist are much bigger than the ones a cruising boat is design to resist.

If a sailor use a racing boat as a cruising boat he would always be very far away from the limits that the boat was designed to meet. Some of these Ocean racing boats have done 3 or 4 circumnavigations, including some on the “bad” direction, dozens of Transats and 20 years after being built they are still racing and circumnavigating. There is no cruising boat that have made so many miles and suffered so much abuse, survived so many storms as any of these boats.

But Solo Ocean racers are not only more resistant to efforts than the standard cruiser boat, they have also incorporated safety features that are not normally including in cruisers, like strong crash boxes or sealed air compartments that will make them unthinkable, no matter what. Some of the cruisers that are derived from these boats (for instance the Pogo) have them also.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
When you put a cruising interior and a cruising equipment load in one of these boats you drastically reduce the performance of the boat; while you increase the working loads on it. You -could- end up with a boat that neither can out-run a storm or squall (which are regular occurrences) as the hull was designed to do; and a boat that with the cruising load may not survive a storm because it was not designed heavily enough to ride one out either.
I have already said that cruising in a contemporary light boat derived from the Open class solo ocean racers implies a different life style philosophy from the ones that like to cruise a condo or even less comfortable boats but you seem to assume that a solo ocean racer has not a considerable payload for a racing boat and it is quite the opposite.

Think of a mini racer (22ft) for example on their more famous Transat between France and Brazil: they have to carry all the provisions needed to sail from France to Brasil and they also carry much more sails than a cruising boat, and sails are heavy. That is a considerable load for such a small boat, but that is nothing compared with the initial load of one of those that an Italian guy had circumnavigated nonstop. Can you imagine the initial needed load in proportion to the size and weight of the boat?

You are right when you said that the boat would be faster in minimum charge condition but wrong when you say that the boat could be dangerous loaded because was not designed to ride a storm on a loaded condition. It was designed for that:

All boats have a minimum load and a maximum load that are stipulated by the designer and the boat are designed to be sailed safely in each condition and in between. Probably the boat would be safer loaded in between 2/3 and 3/4 of the max load, when the righting moment is bigger and the stability curve in what regards AVS is not much affected, not in its minimum sailing condition.

Open class solo boats were the boats chosen by designers as model to design fast ocean cruiser passage makers precisely because their beam and floatability permits them to carry a considerable load and because their huge initial stability and form stability makes them easy and forgiving boats to sail, even solo. After all they were designed for doing just that: Fast and easy solo sailing (or short crew sailing).

Regards

Paulo
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #473  
Old 04-17-2011
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 12,950
Thanks: 80
Thanked 72 Times in 66 Posts
Rep Power: 8
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
Nor do I recall throwing stones at the N41, you are throwing them for ALL of us.
+1.

And Keel...the conclusions you draw about stuff make very little sense to me. For example:

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
He said: "racing sailing is incompatible with good seamanship practices". This is the point I am trying to get across to those who think a racing boat can have an interior dropped in it and become an ocean crossing cruiser. The boats that race cross ocean were built in a 'to the limit of strength' and do not have much (if any) safety factor designed into their construction. When you put a cruising interior and a cruising equipment load in one of these boats you drastically reduce the performance of the boat; while you increase the working loads on it.
How does Toss' quote above equate to boat design? I can see his point as regards the way people sail not being "good seamanship"...primarily because racing is about going fast at all costs. You can say the same about F1 racing not being "safe driving" when compared to public highways. But to draw an immediate conclusion that this statement is about boat design is just as goofy as saying F1 race cars are inherently unsafe - when compared with your '79 Plymouth Station Wagon.

Racing boats, and F1 cars, are phenomenally safe when looked at through the lens of the function for which they are intended.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
The boats that race cross ocean were built in a 'to the limit of strength' and do not have much (if any) safety factor designed into their construction. When you put a cruising interior and a cruising equipment load in one of these boats you drastically reduce the performance of the boat; while you increase the working loads on it.
Your continued insistence in this thread on making the argument ONLY about the N41 (Station Wagon) OR the Open 60/70 (F1 car) is really, really missing the point - and is seriously misleading people that are looking for rational advice.

Do you honestly think that's what today's racer/cruiser yacht designers are doing? Just dropping a cruising interior into an Open 60? I thought you were the voice of rational experience in this thread. Jeez.

There are many, many modern racer/cruisers that have been highlighted in this thread that are perfectly suited to the task of blue water cruising with an emphasis on fun and fast.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
You -could- end up with a boat that neither can out-run a storm or squall (which are regular occurrences) as the hull was designed to do; and a boat that with the cruising load may not survive a storm because it was not designed heavily enough to ride one out either.
Sure, you could end up in any situation - even "crossing the t" on the toothy side of a hurricane because you're still at sea a day or two behind the faster boats who are already drinking rum at anchor.

Fear never wins debates.

If you're the kind of cruiser who obsesses and frets over the 1% bad storm chances, you should buy a heavy, old boat. If you're the kind of cruiser who makes decisions based on the other 99% of the time, buy something faster and more fun. Both cruisers will be watching the weather...and both will be very uncomfortable in that 1% storm anyway. It's really pretty simple....even after all these pages.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40

Last edited by smackdaddy; 04-17-2011 at 02:58 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #474  
Old 04-17-2011
KeelHaulin's Avatar
STARBOARD!!
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,662
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 10
KeelHaulin will become famous soon enough KeelHaulin will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
So now you are comparing a 30' boat to a 41'r?!?!?!
I said that your boat rates higher than mine. Don't really care what size it is; it RATES as a slower boat. You keep bashing me for having a 41' LOA boat; when the LWL is shorter than your boat. In an overall sense the 41 is not much bigger in interior and 'size' than a 36' boat.

Quote:
As I said earlier, some are willing to look at other options, some are so bent on there way is right, no one else is right, even if they agree on some items. Nor do I recall throwing stones at the N41, you are throwing them for ALL of us.
You can look at other options all you want; but come back to the baseline that most all CRUISING sailors are sailing trans ocean are on boats that bear no resemblance to an Open class hull. And the Abby Sunderland result was not atypical for racing sailors in these hulls. I listened to a discussion by Etienne Giroire on Saturday about his Route du Rhum race on a ~50' Tri; which he ended up needing a rescue from. One mistake made; needing some rest/sleep after going aloft and the boat was flipped in a passing squall. Sound familiar? Kinda Abby-like eh? The message is simple. Don't discount the possibility of an intense storm or squall; and don't plan your voyage AS A CRUISER around something that is easily flipped or knocked down. To not do so is to turn your back on the very principles of good seamanship and personal responsibility to make sure you do not require rescue of any sort. The philosophy held by the Pardees (who sail a WOOD hull 24' sailboat all over the globe) is they don't carry an EPIRB because they would never require rescue; and if they ever did they would not want to put another life in jeopardy to save them. That's a little extreme; but they KNOW that their vessel is built to withstand almost anything that comes their way.

You are casting stones at the N-41 when you put it in the same sentence as the Nina and Pinta; which are boats that were 15'th century (500 years old; REALLY??). So if you are putting my boat in the class of something that is that old/slow; then how does your boat compare? It's 50% SLOWER than what I sail; so should we be putting your Jenneau in the same class as the Ancient Greek sailboats? Oh; and I think I can count on both hands and feet the number of times that you guys have made uncalled for snide jabs about my boat; so I don't think one or two little put-downs back at you should be such a big deal.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #475  
Old 04-18-2011
blt2ski's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 6,653
Thanks: 0
Thanked 18 Times in 17 Posts
Rep Power: 10
blt2ski will become famous soon enough
Lets see, a minute a mile is 50% slower?!?!?! so if you are doing 10 min miles, I am doing 11 minute miles, sounds closer to 10% at that rate, you would have to be doing 2 min miles with me at 3 minutes to be 50% slower......not sure that is happening......

Your water line per a post before is 30'. My OVERALL length is 29.5, deck is 28.5, WL is 24.5. So your WL is NOT shorter than my boat, frankly it is longer by half a foot.

If my Jeanneau is in the same class as an Ancient Greek sailboat, so be it, but last I checked, French and greek are not the same.

with that I can see why Mark left the room........bye bye. I'll be glad to let the door hit me on the way out.

Marty
__________________
She drives me boat,
I drives me dinghy!
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #476  
Old 04-18-2011
mitiempo's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Victoria B.C. Canada
Posts: 7,005
Thanks: 0
Thanked 63 Times in 54 Posts
Rep Power: 7
mitiempo will become famous soon enough mitiempo will become famous soon enough
Keel

Do you really want us to believe that the design of fast, seaworthy, and safe sailboats hasn't advanced since the Newport 41? You are blind if so.
__________________
Brian
Living aboard in Victoria Harbour
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #477  
Old 04-18-2011
KeelHaulin's Avatar
STARBOARD!!
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,662
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 10
KeelHaulin will become famous soon enough KeelHaulin will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
Lets see, a minute a mile is 50% slower?!?!?! so if you are doing 10 min miles, I am doing 11 minute miles, sounds closer to 10% at that rate, you would have to be doing 2 min miles with me at 3 minutes to be 50% slower......not sure that is happening......

Your water line per a post before is 30'. My OVERALL length is 29.5, deck is 28.5, WL is 24.5. So your WL is NOT shorter than my boat, frankly it is longer by half a foot.

If my Jeanneau is in the same class as an Ancient Greek sailboat, so be it, but last I checked, French and greek are not the same.

with that I can see why Mark left the room........bye bye. I'll be glad to let the door hit me on the way out.

Marty
I meant 50% of the base rating; but again, as I said earlier, numbers like base ratings are arbitrary. It does not matter Marty; I was talking in terms of a 'put-down' and so were you with that comment about the N-41 being as slow as an ancient square rig. So let's just drop it and stop with the slowest boat to China arguments and put downs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitiempo
Do you really want us to believe that the design of fast, seaworthy, and safe sailboats hasn't advanced since the Newport 41? You are blind if so.
Absolutely not. I never said it was the fastest, most seaworthy, most safe boat out there. I said it has performance in lighter winds that are within the realm of a modern racing hull, while being a heavier displacement boat, which in the opinion of many well known cruising sailors is a safer design (heavier displacement that is). Please look at my analysis and reasoning in that context. I provided evidence that upwind VMG and downwind VMG are not significantly higher at windspeeds below 20kts compared to the Pogo 10.5. I provided a data a point that shows the Newport 41 -CAN- out sail her rating and boats that have ratings as low as ~75 or so (in the context of a long offshore passage of equally prepared race boats from BC to HI). I have given you my personal perspective on how the boat sails and handles heavy air and that it can be easier to sail than a boat with a lightweight hull and rig. I talked about Motion Comfort Index and showed you that the MCI for the N-41 is reasonably high and about 2x higher than the Pogo 10.5. Kevlarpirate gave you his analysis of the boat after owning it for 24 years (and selling it). You don't get better info than that because if he hated the boat and the way it sailed while sailing on other racing hulls he would not have owned it for as long as he did; or give it a glowing review after having sold it.

These are all considerations in terms of what makes a boat an all around excellent performer. These are not arguments to make some sort of imaginary case that the boat is the fastest boat on earth (it would be silly for me to think that or for you to believe I was saying such). The point I was trying to get to was that the N-41 among other old racer-cruisers like the S&S designed Cat 38, the Ericson 39, and other old C&C hull designs are pretty close to optimal when it comes to an offshore CRUISING hull design that can still sail at a reasonable pace in lighter air. As racing hulls became lighter (and faster), beamier, and higher SA/D ratios they became more technical to sail and much more of a handfull in heavy wind and seas. It's fine if you are a crewed race boat, not so much if you are a cruising boat (I'm talking IOR era designs here). I'll talk more to Paulo's points tomorrow; it's late here and I had a long day checking out the boat show.

Last edited by KeelHaulin; 04-18-2011 at 02:05 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #478  
Old 04-18-2011
mitiempo's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Victoria B.C. Canada
Posts: 7,005
Thanks: 0
Thanked 63 Times in 54 Posts
Rep Power: 7
mitiempo will become famous soon enough mitiempo will become famous soon enough
Not all modern fast boats are beamy. I personally would favor a narrower design. The Sundeer I posted about is one but there are some smaller boats that compare with moderate beam and good manners in all conditions. Bob Perry's Saga 35 and Saga 43 are fast in both light air and heavy air and designed for extensive sailing by a couple offshore, as many have shown. The Sage 43 is an interesting comparison to the Newport 42 as well. The Saga is 2000 lbs heavier, with a much longer waterline. And fast in both light and heavy going.
__________________
Brian
Living aboard in Victoria Harbour
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #479  
Old 04-18-2011
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,160
Thanks: 21
Thanked 95 Times in 79 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
.. The point I was trying to get to was that the N-41 among other old racer-cruisers like the S&S designed Cat 38, the Ericson 39, and other old C&C hull designs are pretty close to optimal when it comes to an offshore CRUISING hull design ....
Well, that means you think"that the design of fast, seaworthy, and safe sailboats hasn't advanced since the Newport 41" at least in what concerns offshore cruising.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post

As racing hulls became lighter (and faster), beamier, and higher SA/D ratios they became more technical to sail and much more of a handfull in heavy wind and seas. It's fine if you are a crewed race boat, not so much if you are a cruising boat (I'm talking IOR era designs here). I..
Again and again, the design that is on the base of boats like the Pogo is the Design of SOLO ocean racers. The reason that the design base is based on SOLO ocean racers is because they are designed to be EASY sailed fast and are FORGIVING boats.

sure to go fast in a car, in a motorcycle or in any vehicle you need to know more than to go slowly and it is never as comfortable as going at moderate speed.

These boats are not for beginners and the ones that buy them are experienced sailors but they are the easiest way to go fast and safe on an ocean crossing.

Again, I am not defending anything except the right to sailors choose the boat that suits more their cruising lifestyle, their sailing pleasure and their budget.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
I provided evidence that upwind VMG and downwind VMG are not significantly higher at windspeeds below 20kts compared to the Pogo 10.5.
Regarding the Pogo 10.50 I don't really know what you want to say or prove. Your boat was a fast boat 40 years ago. The Pogo 10.50 is a much smaller boat than the Newport 41 and yet it is incomparably faster. The Pogo 10.50 is a fast cruiser by today parameters. Your boat is significantly slower than a Catalina 400 that has pretty much the speed of a modern good cruiser, not even the speed of a modern performance boat.

I never understood what you wanted to prove with that upwind VMG and downwind VMG difference. You should be the only guy I know that only cruises directly upwind and directly downwind. All the others I know cruise in all directions and all points of sail depending of the course to the place they want to go.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 04-18-2011 at 11:01 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #480  
Old 04-18-2011
smackdaddy's Avatar
Last Man Standing
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 12,950
Thanks: 80
Thanked 72 Times in 66 Posts
Rep Power: 8
smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough smackdaddy is a jewel in the rough
Hey Keel - why do you keep running off the experienced sailors from this forum?
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

S/V Dawn Treader - 1989 Hunter Legend 40
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Keeping Water Sweet paul323 Gear & Maintenance 56 04-23-2011 12:35 PM
Boat speed vs Boat length in light winds Daveinet General Discussion (sailing related) 5 08-22-2010 08:47 PM
Blue water skipper and crew ScottUK Boat Review and Purchase Forum 11 08-05-2010 04:11 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:01 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012