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  #41  
Old 02-02-2011
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The original poster having made his choice, I thought I might prolong the discussion. I have read many posts here, including those by Jeff H. I am hoping you will weigh in Jeff.

I am interested in older designs. I am not speaking of race boats (CCA, RORC, etc) built to a rule. Still, I recognize that most rules will influence designs of their era, race boats or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
Ah so, but the reality is that hull speed says little about how fast a boat actually goes. The real predictor of passage times is the amount of time that a boat spend near, at or above its hullspeed. In my experience, it is very hard to get a Luders to sail anywhere near her hullspeed since they have such limited stability relative to their drag.

[The] Farr 38 and Luders 33 have the same design weight, but the Luders 33 sails on a 24 foot waterline and the Farr on a 32 foot waterline.
I want to explore this a bit. I often see this position advocated in comparisons of older, higher Displacement/Length ratio hulls with more modern designs such as the Farr 38. The Farr has a longer waterline length. It should be faster. How much of the advantage is attributable to the length and how much to the rate at which the newer boats accelerate (come up to speed)? With sufficient horsepower (sail area), the bulkier hull should come up to speed, but more slowly, correct? This assumes equivalent stability, which is lacking in the original comparison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
In my experience, it is very hard to get a Luders to sail anywhere near her hullspeed since they have such limited stability relative to their drag.
How would one go about improving stability on a boat like a Luders 33? On an older wooden design with cast iron ballast, changing to lead from cast iron without changing the weight, might be a viable option, yes? How about the standing rigging? Is it fair to say going from an older aluminum mast to a carbon fiber rig (or newer aluminum section) might also help?

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Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
As posted above the sails are important as is the boat. A light drifter and a light nylon mainsail are easier to keep full in light air than dacron sails. Several owners of Nor'Sea 27s have found this to be true to maximize light air sailing and minimize engine running.
How many older designs get the same budget as the more race oriented boats? Can some of the disparity be offset in this manner?

Thanks

BTB
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  #42  
Old 02-02-2011
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That's the one

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailormon6 View Post
If you bought the Luders 33 that I'm thinking about, on the Chesapeake Bay, you got a good one!
Thanks for your comment. I think we did well after a lot of research which was fun. She's recently repowered. New awlgrip on the hull. Working refrigeration and hot water. Good salty previous owner who lived aboard. She's a solid sailor in good condition at the price we could afford. Not a rocketship, but she sounds seaworthy and should take care of my family if we get caught out. The original brochure brags about not having to reef while everyone else has (but I'm careful what I believe so we will see). Got a detailed survey that cost a fortune but was worth it. I'm not sure how people bought boats without the internet just for comparison's sake and all the photos available. Very excited to sail her up to Cape Ann in June.
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  #43  
Old 02-02-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williamkiester View Post
The original brochure brags about not having to reef while everyone else has.
Such a statement usually means the boat is not one that can go in light winds... (to go back to the title of the thread.)

If that's still a goal, do everything you can to keep your bottom clean and smooth, invest in good sails, and keep excess weight off the boat.
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  #44  
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I gave up on the light winds for longer offshore sailing trips. It didn't seem like I was able to do both within my price range and when push came to shove, I wanted a tough seaworthy vessel that could go far and wide with peace of mind. I am now willing to drag around locally and probably won't do much day sailing, but maybe some local overnighting. I have a good light drifter and a spinnaker, and maybe I'll just swim alongside. Scrubbing the bottom regularly is a good idea. Robin Graham did claim that this boat sailed well in light airs, but he was probably comparing it to an anchor.
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And I have a fully battened main sail. I'm guessing that might give us a tug or two when the winds is light by keeping its shape, but I don't really know the physics of it and my only experience with this is a camber induced windsurfer sail that used to take me into the channel of the SF Bay.
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Old 02-03-2011
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After all this looking I thought the Cascade 36, one of the first suggestions on the thread, and Sabre 34 seemed like the best choices that fit the thread theme. Both were just beyond my financial means factoring in the costs of upgrades to take one of these ladies into the big blue. They seemed like relatively nimble boats that were blue water capable, especially the Cascade but I couldn't find a viable Cascade on the east coast.
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Old 03-01-2011
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No thoughts from anyone on these questions?


Quote:
Originally Posted by BTB View Post
The original poster having made his choice, I thought I might prolong the discussion. I have read many posts here, including those by Jeff H. I am hoping you will weigh in Jeff.

I am interested in older designs. I am not speaking of race boats (CCA, RORC, etc) built to a rule. Still, I recognize that most rules will influence designs of their era, race boats or not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
Ah so, but the reality is that hull speed says little about how fast a boat actually goes. The real predictor of passage times is the amount of time that a boat spend near, at or above its hullspeed. In my experience, it is very hard to get a Luders to sail anywhere near her hullspeed since they have such limited stability relative to their drag.

[The] Farr 38 and Luders 33 have the same design weight, but the Luders 33 sails on a 24 foot waterline and the Farr on a 32 foot waterline.
I want to explore this a bit. I often see this position advocated in comparisons of older, higher Displacement/Length ratio hulls with more modern designs such as the Farr 38. The Farr has a longer waterline length. It should be faster. How much of the advantage is attributable to the length and how much to the rate at which the newer boats accelerate (come up to speed)? With sufficient horsepower (sail area), the bulkier hull should come up to speed, but more slowly, correct? This assumes equivalent stability, which is lacking in the original comparison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
In my experience, it is very hard to get a Luders to sail anywhere near her hullspeed since they have such limited stability relative to their drag.
How would one go about improving stability on a boat like a Luders 33? On an older wooden design with cast iron ballast, changing to lead from cast iron without changing the weight, might be a viable option, yes? How about the standing rigging? Is it fair to say going from an older aluminum mast to a carbon fiber rig (or newer aluminum section) might also help?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
As posted above the sails are important as is the boat. A light drifter and a light nylon mainsail are easier to keep full in light air than dacron sails. Several owners of Nor'Sea 27s have found this to be true to maximize light air sailing and minimize engine running.
How many older designs get the same budget as the more race oriented boats? Can some of the disparity be offset in this manner?

Thanks

BTB

Last edited by BTB; 03-01-2011 at 09:31 PM. Reason: Missed some text
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  #48  
Old 03-01-2011
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The boat has to be able to stand up to her canvas. If it is a heavy boat, especially one with a lot of wetted surface it needs sail area, and for that to work well, stability. More ballast, lower ballast, and a lighter rig all help.
As an example if you place 20 lbs of weight 25 feet above the waterline you need 500 lbs 1 foot below the waterline to compensate and maintain the same vertical center of gravity. Or 250 lbs 2 feet below the waterline. So lightening the rig does make a difference.
But the cost to make major changes to an older boat would be high and not really worth it. Probably better to get a boat that can sail well as designed.
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  #49  
Old 03-02-2011
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Putting Jeff answer in other words:

Only very light oriented performance boats can go easily over hull speed (+14K wind). Most boats are limited by hull speed. Hull speed has to do with the length of the boat at the water line and not with the overall size of the boat.

Let's assume two identical 12m motor boats, heavy boats, that are limited by hull speed.

Let's assume that one has a 100hp engine and the other has a 25hp engine. On perfect conditions with flat water the differences in speed would not be very noticeable. In any other conditions the difference would be huge (that's why fishermen on 12m boats don't have 25hp engines).

The sails of the boat are its engine and the boat stability what is needed to be able to carry the sails. Boats with a huge stability can carry lots of sail area, boats with small stability can carry only a small sail area. The boat stability is given in a most considerable part by form stability (beam) and also by the lower center of gravity (ballast).

Let's assume two 12m sailing boats and assuming that both have the same water line length, hull shape and weight (not planning hulls) but that one has a lot of stability and a lot of sail area and the other has a small stability and small sail area. Like on the motor boats, on ideal conditions, flat water and 18K of wind (depending on the boat), both boats would not have very different speeds.

On any other conditions the difference would be huge. Like on the motor boat, with waves, each wave will tend to stop the boat. The boat with small power will diminish its velocity and will start to accelerate slowly, just to be stopped again by the next wave. The powerful boat will power it's way trough the waves without losing speed. On more difficult conditions the low power boat cannot even make way against the sea and wind because the power available is just not enough.

With weak winds the big sail area of the powerful boat will permit it to reach hull speed with 9 k wind. At that wind speed the small sail area low power sailboat will be sufficient only for half the hull speed. And if we consider smaller wind speeds the differences in speed would even be greater. With 5K of wind the powerful boat will be doing about 5K speed upwind while the low power sailboat will be doing 1 or 2K.

I hope this helps to explain the differences in speed between powerful sailboats and low power sailboats.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 03-02-2011 at 04:49 AM.
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Here is Bob Perry who created the "Wetsnail" moniker explaining his agenda.

original document: http://www.sailnet.com/photogallery/...le=7280&size=1

(Thanks goes to BGD. He mailed WCA an article taken
from SAILING MAGAZINE. May 1986. It deals with a design
analysis and it is by Robert H. Perry. Here are some points
Mr. Perry brings out.)
'In my youth I argued long and hard against the Westsail
type in order to attract attention to my own 'performance
cruiser' goal. I felt certain that the Westsail
suocess...was created by a myth ...... I remember one sunny day
reaching back from Catalina in a well known and performance
respected 40-footer. we slowly overtook a W32. we had about
20 knots apparent and the apparent wind was at about 65
degrees. This Westsail had a big drifter reacher up and it
was really moving along. It took us a painful long time to
pull clear ahead. I earned a new respect for the that, little
'Wetsnail'. `
(Mr. Perry goes on to explain that the modern cruising
boat owes alot to the Westsail line. The line produced a
movement in sailing that was not there previously. Here was
a boat that could make dreams come true. A boat that could
be sailed anywhere.)

Last edited by GBurton; 03-03-2011 at 04:24 PM.
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