A blue water sailer that can go in light winds - Page 52 - SailNet Community
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post #511 of 576 Old 04-25-2011
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Originally Posted by puddinlegs View Post
Bud, Redline was optimized for IOR. Your boat's rig was shortened to make it a better, more manageable cruiser a la cruiser/racer. C&C was more in the racer/cruiser market.

and again, I'll remind you that I like your boat. It's just not what you claim it to be.
No, the Redline 41 had a 17' boom and a 16' J dimension. Much closer to what you see on that photo of Red Jacket - an end era CCAdesign. The early Newport 41 hulls built by Enterprise also had the CCA rig. A shorter boom and a longer I and J was more favorable to IOR rating rules because mainsail area was penalized and oversized headsails were not. As it turns out the Newport 41 was well suited to this because it was already designed to carry 150+ headsails as standard light air inventory. So they chopped 3.5' off of the boom, moved the mast aft one foot and made the rig taller. The result was longer luff lengths on both the headsail and main, with the trade off of less downwind mainsail area (which is why bloopers were flown).

What do I claim it to be, other than a great cruising boat design with a great history as a racing boat with pedigree and wins to prove it? I did not claim it to be anything else.
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post #512 of 576 Old 04-25-2011
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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Wait...which "record" are we talking about "setting straight" here? The subject of the OP's post (which you've not done a very good job of accomplishing)? Or the N41 defense (which I guess you've done alright on)?

The problem is that your whole premise here is subjective - not empirical. And there's just WAY too much evidence out there that contradicts your premise. Especially when those conditions you hold forth make up such a small part of the cruising timeline. So there's no way you can set anything "straight" in this regard.
The record that makes boats like mine and the E-38 out to be something that they are not (lumped with the failed IOR designs), which were definitely NOT offshore capable, despite conformity to an offshore rating rulebook (get it?).

How can the advice of two owners, one of which has owned a N-41 for 24 years and raced on many newer boats, and myself, an owner for 5 years who sails in one of the windiest coastal places in the world, not be providing empirical evidence? I gave you evidence up the ying-yang about performance, and how this boat is not 'slow' given her displacement, and not much slower in sub 20 kt predicted up/down VMG than a Pogo 10.5. How much more empirical evidence do you need?? I'm not the guy who wrote the article on Practical Sailor which states that it is 'the perfect combination of cruising comfort and racing capability.'

Last edited by KeelHaulin; 04-25-2011 at 05:47 PM.
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post #513 of 576 Old 04-25-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
..

Paulo, the only reason Enzo Ferrari ever made a street car was so that he could continue to fund development of the racing cars. He said this himself. The street cars and their exhorbadently priced parts were what kept Ferrari on the race track for many, many years until the production car division was able to get to the level of mass production (merging hand built techniques with assembly line processes).
You were not talking about the past, neither was I.

Regards

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post #514 of 576 Old 04-25-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
The record that makes boats like mine and the E-38 out to be something that they are not (lumped with the failed IOR designs), which were definitely NOT offshore capable, despite conformity to an offshore rating rulebook (get it?).

How can the advice of two owners, one of which has owned a N-41 for 24 years and raced on many newer boats, and myself, an owner for 5 years who sails in one of the windiest coastal places in the world, not be providing empirical evidence? I gave you evidence up the ying-yang about performance, and how this boat is not 'slow' given her displacement, and not much slower in sub 20 kt predicted up/down VMG than a Pogo 10.5. How much more empirical evidence do you need?? I'm not the guy who wrote the article on Practical Sailor which states that it is 'the perfect combination of cruising comfort and racing capability.'
Okay, Keel, so you ARE tunnel-visioned on the N41. Cool...we got that out of the way.

Look - let's try a different tack. The reason no one in this thread can agree is that we're all talking about different things. To wit:

1. The OP asked for full-keel boats that go in light wind - with the presumed assumption that ONLY full-keel boats are REAL "blue water" cruisers.
-Simple answer...I assume...is...they don't exist. Full-keel boats are pigs in light air. Can we all agree on this?

- but this is where it got interesting...

2. Playing off this, the debate then shifted to the traditional "what is the REAL 'blue water cruiser'" angle...and older boats, that can go a little faster than full-keelers started coming into the mix (I think that's where the N41 made its debut). Now, even though the full-keeler crowd probably looks at the N41 as a horrible boat in "REAL" waves, you and KP extol its virtues as a TRUE "blue water" sailer that can blast through waves, yet, indeed, "go in light winds". So - here is yet another angle of the debate...taking the more "modern" designs like the N41 (when compared to full keelers from 1950, that is) and saying they're "better" - to the disapproving howls and cat-calls of the full-keelers.

3. Then comes PCP with the modern array of cruising boats that are WAY fatter and faster than any of the above. YET they are, indeed, "blue water" boats. Now, you and KP start with the disapproving howls and cat-calls, saying that no one, even the designers, even the market itself, knows what they're talking about. These boats are horrible in "REAL" waves. And the full-keelers chuckle.

4. Then comes the issue of how much time the typical cruiser is in such horrible conditions versus having a blast sailing really fast downwind. Do you want fast 99% of the time? Or do you want "comfortable" 1% of the time? (You guys dig that 1%...cool.)

5. Then come whacked-out cost comparisons of 30 year-old-boats to new, modern designs on the market, when the discussion was about the differences in design and capability between older and newer hulls (not cost). The classic dodge that gets us nowhere.

6. Then come the conspiracy theories of how the new boat marketers are duping the blind world of up-and-coming cruisers into going out and killing themselves because of too much canned corn in the non-existent bilge causing problems with stability while surfing toward Antigua under a kite at 22 knots.

So, see? We seem to be having a little trouble with focus in "setting the record straight" as it pertains to a "blue water sailer that can go in light winds".

None of this stuff is empirical. You just seem to think it is because it's your opinion.


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Last edited by smackdaddy; 04-25-2011 at 06:22 PM.
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post #515 of 576 Old 04-25-2011
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post #516 of 576 Old 04-25-2011
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Smack, Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

We could always meet on the field of honor and battle this out like men – SSS is half over so we have our choice of the “In the Bay”, “Vallejo 1-2” and “Half Moon Bay” races. HMB is notoriously light air being at the tail end of the season so we would get a good idea as to what is a good light air performer. Oh, I forgot, half of the people arguing here don’t even own boats or are pond sailors.

Echo Oscar Tango.
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Smack, Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

We could always meet on the field of honor and battle this out like men – SSS is half over so we have our choice of the “In the Bay”, “Vallejo 1-2” and “Half Moon Bay” races. HMB is notoriously light air being at the tail end of the season so we would get a good idea as to what is a good light air performer. Oh, I forgot, half of the people arguing here don’t even own boats or are pond sailors.

Echo Oscar Tango.
Yep - I'm in the pond sailor class...but I have a hell of a go-bag!

I'm just illustrating how this whole thing has been a ridiculous argument for quite a while now. It's all over the freakin' place and no one is making sense any more. At least PCP has tried to maintain some objectivity - acknowledging the fact that the choice is as much about personal taste as anything else.


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Last edited by smackdaddy; 04-25-2011 at 06:48 PM.
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post #518 of 576 Old 04-25-2011
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Don't you just love Revisionist History?? You can twist it into whatever you want, but you can't come to terms with those of us here who know what they are talking about, because you can't see past your beer goggle visions of what most people looking at the new boats are also seeing (marketing). Then comes the free wine at the boat show dock to get you lubed up about signing the purchase contract, and the loan papers...
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post #519 of 576 Old 04-25-2011
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Hey, hey, it wasn’t wine at Farallones, it was the Mai Tai’s at the Pacific Cup dock! And I did come perilously close to buying a sailing dinghy when they said I could get one with a red hull, however. What I’m still trying to figure out what Ferrari has to do with sailing? Are they getting into sponsorship?
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I'm just trying to figure out how I get beer goggles from drinking wine.


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